What is biblioitemnumber for?

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What is biblioitemnumber for?

barton
Just out of curiosity, why does biblioitemnumber exist? There should be a one-to-one relationship between biblio records and biblioitem records ... so why not use biblionumber as the primary key for biblioitems?

--Barton

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Re: What is biblioitemnumber for?

Tomas Cohen Arazi
Or merge biblio and biblioitems ;-)

El sáb., 17 nov. 2018 a las 16:41, Barton Chittenden (<[hidden email]>) escribió:
Just out of curiosity, why does biblioitemnumber exist? There should be a one-to-one relationship between biblio records and biblioitem records ... so why not use biblionumber as the primary key for biblioitems?

--Barton
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Re: What is biblioitemnumber for?

Sophie Meynieux

+1

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Le 17/11/2018 à 21:24, Tomas Cohen Arazi a écrit :
Or merge biblio and biblioitems ;-)

El sáb., 17 nov. 2018 a las 16:41, Barton Chittenden (<[hidden email]>) escribió:
Just out of curiosity, why does biblioitemnumber exist? There should be a one-to-one relationship between biblio records and biblioitem records ... so why not use biblionumber as the primary key for biblioitems?

--Barton
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Re: What is biblioitemnumber for?

paul POULAIN-3
In reply to this post by barton
<wise-old-man mode ON>

Koha v1.x has no MARC support. In fact, it was the first FRBR compliant
software ever, long before FRBR exist... (who says Open Source is not
innovative :D )

More explanation: in Koha v1, you had to enter a minimal biblio
description (title, author(s), subject(s)) THEN one or more expression
of the work (one large print, one readed book, one pocket, ...), THEN
the different items. Very efficient and handy.

When I wrote the MARC code, I had to break this 3 level management (MARC
has only 2 levels, biblio and items).

In Koha 2.0, you had the option to stay "basic" of "marc" cataloguing.
It has been removed in Koha ??? (2.2 or 3.0 ?), only MARC cataloguing
remained.

At this time biblioitems table became useless/should have been merged,
but no one coded/hacked it. But yes, it can be removed (unless we want
to keep it for future advanced support of FRBR :D )

<wise-old-man mode OFF>


Le 17/11/2018 à 20:40, Barton Chittenden a écrit :
> Just out of curiosity, why does biblioitemnumber exist? There should
> be a one-to-one relationship between biblio records and biblioitem
> records ... so why not use biblionumber as the primary key for
> biblioitems?
>
> --Barton

--
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BibLibre, Open Source software and services for libraries

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Re: What is biblioitemnumber for?

Tomas Cohen Arazi
Great info, Paul!

We now removed the marc/marcxml columns from biblioitems too, so it makes more sense to merge them.

El lun., 19 nov. 2018 a las 6:02, Paul Poulain (<[hidden email]>) escribió:
<wise-old-man mode ON>

Koha v1.x has no MARC support. In fact, it was the first FRBR compliant
software ever, long before FRBR exist... (who says Open Source is not
innovative :D )

More explanation: in Koha v1, you had to enter a minimal biblio
description (title, author(s), subject(s)) THEN one or more expression
of the work (one large print, one readed book, one pocket, ...), THEN
the different items. Very efficient and handy.

When I wrote the MARC code, I had to break this 3 level management (MARC
has only 2 levels, biblio and items).

In Koha 2.0, you had the option to stay "basic" of "marc" cataloguing.
It has been removed in Koha ??? (2.2 or 3.0 ?), only MARC cataloguing
remained.

At this time biblioitems table became useless/should have been merged,
but no one coded/hacked it. But yes, it can be removed (unless we want
to keep it for future advanced support of FRBR :D )

<wise-old-man mode OFF>


Le 17/11/2018 à 20:40, Barton Chittenden a écrit :
> Just out of curiosity, why does biblioitemnumber exist? There should
> be a one-to-one relationship between biblio records and biblioitem
> records ... so why not use biblionumber as the primary key for
> biblioitems?
>
> --Barton

--
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BibLibre, Services en logiciels libres pour les bibliothèques
BibLibre, Open Source software and services for libraries

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Re: What is biblioitemnumber for?

Marcel de Rooy

Three levels in BIBFrame again ?

 

Van: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> Namens Tomas Cohen Arazi
Verzonden: maandag 19 november 2018 14:02
Aan: Paul Poulain <[hidden email]>
CC: koha-devel <[hidden email]>
Onderwerp: Re: [Koha-devel] What is biblioitemnumber for?

 

Great info, Paul!

 

We now removed the marc/marcxml columns from biblioitems too, so it makes more sense to merge them.

 

El lun., 19 nov. 2018 a las 6:02, Paul Poulain (<[hidden email]>) escribió:

<wise-old-man mode ON>

Koha v1.x has no MARC support. In fact, it was the first FRBR compliant
software ever, long before FRBR exist... (who says Open Source is not
innovative :D )

More explanation: in Koha v1, you had to enter a minimal biblio
description (title, author(s), subject(s)) THEN one or more expression
of the work (one large print, one readed book, one pocket, ...), THEN
the different items. Very efficient and handy.

When I wrote the MARC code, I had to break this 3 level management (MARC
has only 2 levels, biblio and items).

In Koha 2.0, you had the option to stay "basic" of "marc" cataloguing.
It has been removed in Koha ??? (2.2 or 3.0 ?), only MARC cataloguing
remained.

At this time biblioitems table became useless/should have been merged,
but no one coded/hacked it. But yes, it can be removed (unless we want
to keep it for future advanced support of FRBR :D )

<wise-old-man mode OFF>


Le 17/11/2018 à 20:40, Barton Chittenden a écrit :
> Just out of curiosity, why does biblioitemnumber exist? There should
> be a one-to-one relationship between biblio records and biblioitem
> records ... so why not use biblionumber as the primary key for
> biblioitems?
>
> --Barton

--
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BibLibre, Services en logiciels libres pour les bibliothèques
BibLibre, Open Source software and services for libraries

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Re: What is biblioitemnumber for?

Ere Maijala
If three levels are needed in the future, I'd start from a clean(er)
slate and at least make sure they're named appropriately.

--Ere

Marcel de Rooy kirjoitti 19.11.2018 klo 15.08:

> Three levels in BIBFrame again ?
>
> *Van:* [hidden email]
> <[hidden email]> *Namens *Tomas Cohen Arazi
> *Verzonden:* maandag 19 november 2018 14:02
> *Aan:* Paul Poulain <[hidden email]>
> *CC:* koha-devel <[hidden email]>
> *Onderwerp:* Re: [Koha-devel] What is biblioitemnumber for?
>
> Great info, Paul!
>
> We now removed the marc/marcxml columns from biblioitems too, so it
> makes more sense to merge them.
>
> El lun., 19 nov. 2018 a las 6:02, Paul Poulain
> (<[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>) escribió:
>
>     <wise-old-man mode ON>
>
>     Koha v1.x has no MARC support. In fact, it was the first FRBR compliant
>     software ever, long before FRBR exist... (who says Open Source is not
>     innovative :D )
>
>     More explanation: in Koha v1, you had to enter a minimal biblio
>     description (title, author(s), subject(s)) THEN one or more expression
>     of the work (one large print, one readed book, one pocket, ...), THEN
>     the different items. Very efficient and handy.
>
>     When I wrote the MARC code, I had to break this 3 level management
>     (MARC
>     has only 2 levels, biblio and items).
>
>     In Koha 2.0, you had the option to stay "basic" of "marc" cataloguing.
>     It has been removed in Koha ??? (2.2 or 3.0 ?), only MARC cataloguing
>     remained.
>
>     At this time biblioitems table became useless/should have been merged,
>     but no one coded/hacked it. But yes, it can be removed (unless we want
>     to keep it for future advanced support of FRBR :D )
>
>     <wise-old-man mode OFF>
>
>
>     Le 17/11/2018 à 20:40, Barton Chittenden a écrit :
>      > Just out of curiosity, why does biblioitemnumber exist? There should
>      > be a one-to-one relationship between biblio records and biblioitem
>      > records ... so why not use biblionumber as the primary key for
>      > biblioitems?
>      >
>      > --Barton
>
>     --
>     Paul Poulain, Associé-gérant / co-owner
>     BibLibre, Services en logiciels libres pour les bibliothèques
>     BibLibre, Open Source software and services for libraries
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     Koha-devel mailing list
>     [hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     http://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel
>     website : http://www.koha-community.org/
>     git : http://git.koha-community.org/
>     bugs : http://bugs.koha-community.org/
>
>
> --
>
> Tomás Cohen Arazi
>
> Theke Solutions (http://theke.io <http://theke.io/>)
> ✆+54 9351 3513384
> GPG: B2F3C15F
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> bugs : http://bugs.koha-community.org/
>

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Re: What is biblioitemnumber for?

paul POULAIN-3
 From my side it was a joke: we will integrate the new standards, no
doubts, but we'll do it more cleanly than using biblio/biblioitems/items !

Le 19/11/2018 à 14:39, Ere Maijala a écrit :
> If three levels are needed in the future, I'd start from a clean(er)
> slate and at least make sure they're named appropriately.

--
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BibLibre, Open Source software and services for libraries

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Re: What is biblioitemnumber for?

Ere Maijala
Phew! :)

Paul Poulain kirjoitti 19.11.2018 klo 15.41:
>  From my side it was a joke: we will integrate the new standards, no
> doubts, but we'll do it more cleanly than using biblio/biblioitems/items !
>
> Le 19/11/2018 à 14:39, Ere Maijala a écrit :
>> If three levels are needed in the future, I'd start from a clean(er)
>> slate and at least make sure they're named appropriately.
>

--
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Re: What is biblioitemnumber for?

MartinRenvoize
So who fancies sponsoring that cleanup... it's been on my "Wouldn't it be nice to do" list for years ;)

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On Mon, 19 Nov 2018 at 13:52, Ere Maijala <[hidden email]> wrote:
Phew! :)

Paul Poulain kirjoitti 19.11.2018 klo 15.41:
>  From my side it was a joke: we will integrate the new standards, no
> doubts, but we'll do it more cleanly than using biblio/biblioitems/items !
>
> Le 19/11/2018 à 14:39, Ere Maijala a écrit :
>> If three levels are needed in the future, I'd start from a clean(er)
>> slate and at least make sure they're named appropriately.
>

--
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Kansalliskirjasto / The National Library of Finland
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Re: What is biblioitemnumber for?

Stefano Bargioni
In reply to this post by Ere Maijala
Paul, very interesting the basic historic idea. What you wrote, helps me to say that with Elasticsearch, Koha has the possibility to adopt definitely the LRM [1] model, that is going to be implemented in RDA [2].
Especially important IMHO are links among authorities. Or, better, links of any type.
Stefano

[1] https://www.ifla.org/publications/node/11412
[2] http://www.rda-rsc.org/ImplementationLRMinRDA

> On 19 Nov 2018, at 14:39, Ere Maijala <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> If three levels are needed in the future, I'd start from a clean(er) slate and at least make sure they're named appropriately.
>
> --Ere
>
> Marcel de Rooy kirjoitti 19.11.2018 klo 15.08:
>> Three levels in BIBFrame again ?
>> *Van:* [hidden email] <[hidden email]> *Namens *Tomas Cohen Arazi
>> *Verzonden:* maandag 19 november 2018 14:02
>> *Aan:* Paul Poulain <[hidden email]>
>> *CC:* koha-devel <[hidden email]>
>> *Onderwerp:* Re: [Koha-devel] What is biblioitemnumber for?
>> Great info, Paul!
>> We now removed the marc/marcxml columns from biblioitems too, so it makes more sense to merge them.
>> El lun., 19 nov. 2018 a las 6:02, Paul Poulain (<[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>) escribió:
>>    <wise-old-man mode ON>
>>    Koha v1.x has no MARC support. In fact, it was the first FRBR compliant
>>    software ever, long before FRBR exist... (who says Open Source is not
>>    innovative :D )
>>    More explanation: in Koha v1, you had to enter a minimal biblio
>>    description (title, author(s), subject(s)) THEN one or more expression
>>    of the work (one large print, one readed book, one pocket, ...), THEN
>>    the different items. Very efficient and handy.
>>    When I wrote the MARC code, I had to break this 3 level management
>>    (MARC
>>    has only 2 levels, biblio and items).
>>    In Koha 2.0, you had the option to stay "basic" of "marc" cataloguing.
>>    It has been removed in Koha ??? (2.2 or 3.0 ?), only MARC cataloguing
>>    remained.
>>    At this time biblioitems table became useless/should have been merged,
>>    but no one coded/hacked it. But yes, it can be removed (unless we want
>>    to keep it for future advanced support of FRBR :D )
>>    <wise-old-man mode OFF>
>>    Le 17/11/2018 à 20:40, Barton Chittenden a écrit :
>>     > Just out of curiosity, why does biblioitemnumber exist? There should
>>     > be a one-to-one relationship between biblio records and biblioitem
>>     > records ... so why not use biblionumber as the primary key for
>>     > biblioitems?
>>     >
>>     > --Barton
>>    --     Paul Poulain, Associé-gérant / co-owner
>>    BibLibre, Services en logiciels libres pour les bibliothèques
>>    BibLibre, Open Source software and services for libraries
>>    _______________________________________________
>>    Koha-devel mailing list
>>    [hidden email]
>>    <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>    http://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel
>>    website : http://www.koha-community.org/
>>    git : http://git.koha-community.org/
>>    bugs : http://bugs.koha-community.org/
>> --
>> Tomás Cohen Arazi
>> Theke Solutions (http://theke.io <http://theke.io/>)
>> ✆+54 9351 3513384
>> GPG: B2F3C15F
>> _______________________________________________
>> Koha-devel mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel
>> website : http://www.koha-community.org/
>> git : http://git.koha-community.org/
>> bugs : http://bugs.koha-community.org/
>
> --
> Ere Maijala
> Kansalliskirjasto / The National Library of Finland
> _______________________________________________
> Koha-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel
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> git : http://git.koha-community.org/
> bugs : http://bugs.koha-community.org/

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Re: What is biblioitemnumber for?

barton
Thanks Paul, that was interesting! I'm glad I asked :-)

On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 10:58 AM Stefano Bargioni <[hidden email]> wrote:
Paul, very interesting the basic historic idea. What you wrote, helps me to say that with Elasticsearch, Koha has the possibility to adopt definitely the LRM [1] model, that is going to be implemented in RDA [2].
Especially important IMHO are links among authorities. Or, better, links of any type.
Stefano

[1] https://www.ifla.org/publications/node/11412
[2] http://www.rda-rsc.org/ImplementationLRMinRDA

> On 19 Nov 2018, at 14:39, Ere Maijala <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> If three levels are needed in the future, I'd start from a clean(er) slate and at least make sure they're named appropriately.
>
> --Ere
>
> Marcel de Rooy kirjoitti 19.11.2018 klo 15.08:
>> Three levels in BIBFrame again ?
>> *Van:* [hidden email] <[hidden email]> *Namens *Tomas Cohen Arazi
>> *Verzonden:* maandag 19 november 2018 14:02
>> *Aan:* Paul Poulain <[hidden email]>
>> *CC:* koha-devel <[hidden email]>
>> *Onderwerp:* Re: [Koha-devel] What is biblioitemnumber for?
>> Great info, Paul!
>> We now removed the marc/marcxml columns from biblioitems too, so it makes more sense to merge them.
>> El lun., 19 nov. 2018 a las 6:02, Paul Poulain (<[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>) escribió:
>>    <wise-old-man mode ON>
>>    Koha v1.x has no MARC support. In fact, it was the first FRBR compliant
>>    software ever, long before FRBR exist... (who says Open Source is not
>>    innovative :D )
>>    More explanation: in Koha v1, you had to enter a minimal biblio
>>    description (title, author(s), subject(s)) THEN one or more expression
>>    of the work (one large print, one readed book, one pocket, ...), THEN
>>    the different items. Very efficient and handy.
>>    When I wrote the MARC code, I had to break this 3 level management
>>    (MARC
>>    has only 2 levels, biblio and items).
>>    In Koha 2.0, you had the option to stay "basic" of "marc" cataloguing.
>>    It has been removed in Koha ??? (2.2 or 3.0 ?), only MARC cataloguing
>>    remained.
>>    At this time biblioitems table became useless/should have been merged,
>>    but no one coded/hacked it. But yes, it can be removed (unless we want
>>    to keep it for future advanced support of FRBR :D )
>>    <wise-old-man mode OFF>
>>    Le 17/11/2018 à 20:40, Barton Chittenden a écrit :
>>     > Just out of curiosity, why does biblioitemnumber exist? There should
>>     > be a one-to-one relationship between biblio records and biblioitem
>>     > records ... so why not use biblionumber as the primary key for
>>     > biblioitems?
>>     >
>>     > --Barton
>>    --     Paul Poulain, Associé-gérant / co-owner
>>    BibLibre, Services en logiciels libres pour les bibliothèques
>>    BibLibre, Open Source software and services for libraries
>>    _______________________________________________
>>    Koha-devel mailing list
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>>    <mailto:[hidden email]>
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>>    website : http://www.koha-community.org/
>>    git : http://git.koha-community.org/
>>    bugs : http://bugs.koha-community.org/
>> --
>> Tomás Cohen Arazi
>> Theke Solutions (http://theke.io <http://theke.io/>)
>> ✆+54 9351 3513384
>> GPG: B2F3C15F
>> _______________________________________________
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>
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> Ere Maijala
> Kansalliskirjasto / The National Library of Finland
> _______________________________________________
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roadmap to LRM support ? [was Re: What is biblioitemnumber for?]

paul POULAIN-3
In reply to this post by Stefano Bargioni

Hello Stefano,

What you're pointing Stefano is very important: we must start our effort toward LRM.

Here is my 1st thoughts about it: I think that LRM support on Koha means 2 things:

  • internal handling of the LRM model. This would mean breaking the biblio/items structure of the database, managing "LRM records" (if we have), proposing LRM cataloguing tools, and changing many many other things in Koha (like MARC staging, z39/50 search, ...) I feel that this will require years and a lot of work, and for now the national catalogs are not ready to propose that.
  • new search paradigm. What the Oslo Public Library made is very interesting. when you do a search, you get the works (author/title/copyright date), then can see the expressions that exists in the library (publication dates, material type/support), then the items. Example: XXXXX I don't know in US, italy or other countries, but in France the BNF is working hard on adding "LRM" fields in their catalogue. This is done by adding new MARC fields (a lot...), that will contain an ARK to the linked data (work, authors, place, subject, ...). Last week, there was a meeting at the BNF where they presented their plans for 2019. BibLibre has not yet started to investigate the effort to create a "LRM-UNIMARC-Elastic Search" in Koha, but, for sure that's something we'll investigate in 2019. If anyone is willing to join the effort, let me know (even better: if you are interested in LRM-MARC21-Elastic, the idea being to have a flexible configuration). If anyone has information regarding LRM-MARC21-LoC plans, feel free to share !

Have I missed something ? What are your plan regarding IFLA-LRM ? What's next ?

Le 19/11/2018 à 16:58, Stefano Bargioni a écrit :
Paul, very interesting the basic historic idea. What you wrote, helps me to say that with Elasticsearch, Koha has the possibility to adopt definitely the LRM [1] model, that is going to be implemented in RDA [2].
Especially important IMHO are links among authorities. Or, better, links of any type.
Stefano 

[1] https://www.ifla.org/publications/node/11412
[2] http://www.rda-rsc.org/ImplementationLRMinRDA
-- 
Paul Poulain, Associé-gérant / co-owner
BibLibre, Services en logiciels libres pour les bibliothèques
BibLibre, Open Source software and services for libraries

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Re: roadmap to LRM support ? [was Re: What is biblioitemnumber for?]

dcook

I can’t speak to LRM at all, but it reminds me how perhaps we should start moving towards uncoupling some parts of Koha and thinking more about how the different aspects should/could interact with different metadata models.

 

I think Paul has already targeted the most important thing and that’s search. Users don’t care what metadata model is in Koha. They just want to be able to find the resources they desire. So whatever we do… I think we should put OPAC users of Koha first and then work backwards.

 

David Cook

Systems Librarian

Prosentient Systems

72/330 Wattle St

Ultimo, NSW 2007

Australia

 

Office: 02 9212 0899

Direct: 02 8005 0595

 

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Paul Poulain
Sent: Tuesday, 20 November 2018 11:58 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Koha-devel] roadmap to LRM support ? [was Re: What is biblioitemnumber for?]

 

Hello Stefano,

What you're pointing Stefano is very important: we must start our effort toward LRM.

Here is my 1st thoughts about it: I think that LRM support on Koha means 2 things:

  • internal handling of the LRM model. This would mean breaking the biblio/items structure of the database, managing "LRM records" (if we have), proposing LRM cataloguing tools, and changing many many other things in Koha (like MARC staging, z39/50 search, ...) I feel that this will require years and a lot of work, and for now the national catalogs are not ready to propose that.
  • new search paradigm. What the Oslo Public Library made is very interesting. when you do a search, you get the works (author/title/copyright date), then can see the expressions that exists in the library (publication dates, material type/support), then the items. Example: XXXXX I don't know in US, italy or other countries, but in France the BNF is working hard on adding "LRM" fields in their catalogue. This is done by adding new MARC fields (a lot...), that will contain an ARK to the linked data (work, authors, place, subject, ...). Last week, there was a meeting at the BNF where they presented their plans for 2019. BibLibre has not yet started to investigate the effort to create a "LRM-UNIMARC-Elastic Search" in Koha, but, for sure that's something we'll investigate in 2019. If anyone is willing to join the effort, let me know (even better: if you are interested in LRM-MARC21-Elastic, the idea being to have a flexible configuration). If anyone has information regarding LRM-MARC21-LoC plans, feel free to share !

Have I missed something ? What are your plan regarding IFLA-LRM ? What's next ?

Le 19/11/2018 à 16:58, Stefano Bargioni a écrit :

Paul, very interesting the basic historic idea. What you wrote, helps me to say that with Elasticsearch, Koha has the possibility to adopt definitely the LRM [1] model, that is going to be implemented in RDA [2].
Especially important IMHO are links among authorities. Or, better, links of any type.
Stefano 
 
[1] https://www.ifla.org/publications/node/11412
[2] http://www.rda-rsc.org/ImplementationLRMinRDA
-- 
Paul Poulain, Associé-gérant / co-owner
BibLibre, Services en logiciels libres pour les bibliothèques
BibLibre, Open Source software and services for libraries

_______________________________________________
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http://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel
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Re: roadmap to LRM support ? [was Re: What is biblioitemnumber for?]

dcook
In reply to this post by paul POULAIN-3

Recently, I used a discovery layer for a public library of which I’m a member, and I was so frustrated, as the search interface was so poorly designed. I spent minutes trying to find my resource but I couldn’t do anything but put keywords into a box, which did not retrieve the resource. Fortunately, I was able to fallback to their legacy catalogue where the search only took me 2 seconds to find the resource.

 

But it’s a reminder that the people who matter most are the users of the library system. If that library loses their legacy catalogue, I’ll probably just stop using that library, as the discovery layer search interface was useless.

 

David Cook

Systems Librarian

Prosentient Systems

72/330 Wattle St

Ultimo, NSW 2007

Australia

 

Office: 02 9212 0899

Direct: 02 8005 0595

 

From: David Cook [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, 21 November 2018 12:30 PM
To: 'Paul Poulain' <[hidden email]>; '[hidden email]' <[hidden email]>
Subject: RE: [Koha-devel] roadmap to LRM support ? [was Re: What is biblioitemnumber for?]

 

I can’t speak to LRM at all, but it reminds me how perhaps we should start moving towards uncoupling some parts of Koha and thinking more about how the different aspects should/could interact with different metadata models.

 

I think Paul has already targeted the most important thing and that’s search. Users don’t care what metadata model is in Koha. They just want to be able to find the resources they desire. So whatever we do… I think we should put OPAC users of Koha first and then work backwards.

 

David Cook

Systems Librarian

Prosentient Systems

72/330 Wattle St

Ultimo, NSW 2007

Australia

 

Office: 02 9212 0899

Direct: 02 8005 0595

 

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Paul Poulain
Sent: Tuesday, 20 November 2018 11:58 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Koha-devel] roadmap to LRM support ? [was Re: What is biblioitemnumber for?]

 

Hello Stefano,

What you're pointing Stefano is very important: we must start our effort toward LRM.

Here is my 1st thoughts about it: I think that LRM support on Koha means 2 things:

  • internal handling of the LRM model. This would mean breaking the biblio/items structure of the database, managing "LRM records" (if we have), proposing LRM cataloguing tools, and changing many many other things in Koha (like MARC staging, z39/50 search, ...) I feel that this will require years and a lot of work, and for now the national catalogs are not ready to propose that.
  • new search paradigm. What the Oslo Public Library made is very interesting. when you do a search, you get the works (author/title/copyright date), then can see the expressions that exists in the library (publication dates, material type/support), then the items. Example: XXXXX I don't know in US, italy or other countries, but in France the BNF is working hard on adding "LRM" fields in their catalogue. This is done by adding new MARC fields (a lot...), that will contain an ARK to the linked data (work, authors, place, subject, ...). Last week, there was a meeting at the BNF where they presented their plans for 2019. BibLibre has not yet started to investigate the effort to create a "LRM-UNIMARC-Elastic Search" in Koha, but, for sure that's something we'll investigate in 2019. If anyone is willing to join the effort, let me know (even better: if you are interested in LRM-MARC21-Elastic, the idea being to have a flexible configuration). If anyone has information regarding LRM-MARC21-LoC plans, feel free to share !

Have I missed something ? What are your plan regarding IFLA-LRM ? What's next ?

Le 19/11/2018 à 16:58, Stefano Bargioni a écrit :

Paul, very interesting the basic historic idea. What you wrote, helps me to say that with Elasticsearch, Koha has the possibility to adopt definitely the LRM [1] model, that is going to be implemented in RDA [2].
Especially important IMHO are links among authorities. Or, better, links of any type.
Stefano 
 
[1] https://www.ifla.org/publications/node/11412
[2] http://www.rda-rsc.org/ImplementationLRMinRDA
-- 
Paul Poulain, Associé-gérant / co-owner
BibLibre, Services en logiciels libres pour les bibliothèques
BibLibre, Open Source software and services for libraries

_______________________________________________
Koha-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel
website : http://www.koha-community.org/
git : http://git.koha-community.org/
bugs : http://bugs.koha-community.org/
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Re: roadmap to LRM support ? [was Re: What is biblioitemnumber for?]

Stefano Bargioni
I also like to speak from a "cataloguer first" point of view.
I mean: with RDA and LRM, cataloguing is moving to ... catalinking [1]. It is an intellectual job, that the staff UI has to support. Of course, in the background a robust data structure (oriented to objects and links among them) is required.
And good (linked) data are IMHO necessary to build a powerful search interface.
So, can Koha evolve up to this vision, where maybe Bibframe and MARC21+RDA have to be present at the same time? A lot of work, I'm sure, that requires (not only) new funds.
Ciao. Stefano 


On 21 Nov 2018, at 02:32, David Cook <[hidden email]> wrote:

Recently, I used a discovery layer for a public library of which I’m a member, and I was so frustrated, as the search interface was so poorly designed. I spent minutes trying to find my resource but I couldn’t do anything but put keywords into a box, which did not retrieve the resource. Fortunately, I was able to fallback to their legacy catalogue where the search only took me 2 seconds to find the resource. 
 
But it’s a reminder that the people who matter most are the users of the library system. If that library loses their legacy catalogue, I’ll probably just stop using that library, as the discovery layer search interface was useless.
 
David Cook
Systems Librarian
Prosentient Systems
72/330 Wattle St
Ultimo, NSW 2007
Australia
 
Office: 02 9212 0899
Direct: 02 8005 0595
 
From: David Cook [[hidden email]] 
Sent: Wednesday, 21 November 2018 12:30 PM
To: 'Paul Poulain' <[hidden email]>; '[hidden email]' <[hidden email]>
Subject: RE: [Koha-devel] roadmap to LRM support ? [was Re: What is biblioitemnumber for?]
 
I can’t speak to LRM at all, but it reminds me how perhaps we should start moving towards uncoupling some parts of Koha and thinking more about how the different aspects should/could interact with different metadata models. 
 
I think Paul has already targeted the most important thing and that’s search. Users don’t care what metadata model is in Koha. They just want to be able to find the resources they desire. So whatever we do… I think we should put OPAC users of Koha first and then work backwards. 
 
David Cook
Systems Librarian
Prosentient Systems
72/330 Wattle St
Ultimo, NSW 2007
Australia
 
Office: 02 9212 0899
Direct: 02 8005 0595
 
From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Paul Poulain
Sent: Tuesday, 20 November 2018 11:58 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Koha-devel] roadmap to LRM support ? [was Re: What is biblioitemnumber for?]
 

Hello Stefano,

What you're pointing Stefano is very important: we must start our effort toward LRM.

Here is my 1st thoughts about it: I think that LRM support on Koha means 2 things:

  • internal handling of the LRM model. This would mean breaking the biblio/items structure of the database, managing "LRM records" (if we have), proposing LRM cataloguing tools, and changing many many other things in Koha (like MARC staging, z39/50 search, ...) I feel that this will require years and a lot of work, and for now the national catalogs are not ready to propose that.
  • new search paradigm. What the Oslo Public Library made is very interesting. when you do a search, you get the works (author/title/copyright date), then can see the expressions that exists in the library (publication dates, material type/support), then the items. Example: XXXXX I don't know in US, italy or other countries, but in France the BNF is working hard on adding "LRM" fields in their catalogue. This is done by adding new MARC fields (a lot...), that will contain an ARK to the linked data (work, authors, place, subject, ...). Last week, there was a meeting at the BNF where they presented their plans for 2019. BibLibre has not yet started to investigate the effort to create a "LRM-UNIMARC-Elastic Search" in Koha, but, for sure that's something we'll investigate in 2019. If anyone is willing to join the effort, let me know (even better: if you are interested in LRM-MARC21-Elastic, the idea being to have a flexible configuration). If anyone has information regarding LRM-MARC21-LoC plans, feel free to share !

Have I missed something ? What are your plan regarding IFLA-LRM ? What's next ?

Le 19/11/2018 à 16:58, Stefano Bargioni a écrit :
Paul, very interesting the basic historic idea. What you wrote, helps me to say that with Elasticsearch, Koha has the possibility to adopt definitely the LRM [1] model, that is going to be implemented in RDA [2].
Especially important IMHO are links among authorities. Or, better, links of any type.
Stefano 
 
[1] https://www.ifla.org/publications/node/11412
[2] http://www.rda-rsc.org/ImplementationLRMinRDA
-- 
Paul Poulain, Associé-gérant / co-owner
BibLibre, Services en logiciels libres pour les bibliothèques
BibLibre, Open Source software and services for libraries
_______________________________________________
Koha-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel
website : http://www.koha-community.org/
git : http://git.koha-community.org/
bugs : http://bugs.koha-community.org/


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Re: roadmap to LRM support ? [was Re: What is biblioitemnumber for?]

paul POULAIN-3

I agree with the idea of catalinking, and/but I think that most of the catalinking will be done by national repos (like BNF, LoC, ...)

That's why I think/feel that we should focus on linked data display first. And that's one of the reason why we (BibLibre) started the "Explore" project (see my talk at the KohaCon18 : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIByWcvIj5Q)

we're continuing to investigate, try, fail, retry, ...

I also think that academic library point of view will differ a little bit from public library pov.


Le 21/11/2018 à 13:07, Stefano Bargioni a écrit :
I also like to speak from a "cataloguer first" point of view.
I mean: with RDA and LRM, cataloguing is moving to ... catalinking [1]. It is an intellectual job, that the staff UI has to support. Of course, in the background a robust data structure (oriented to objects and links among them) is required.
And good (linked) data are IMHO necessary to build a powerful search interface.
So, can Koha evolve up to this vision, where maybe Bibframe and MARC21+RDA have to be present at the same time? A lot of work, I'm sure, that requires (not only) new funds.
Ciao. Stefano 


On 21 Nov 2018, at 02:32, David Cook <[hidden email]> wrote:

Recently, I used a discovery layer for a public library of which I’m a member, and I was so frustrated, as the search interface was so poorly designed. I spent minutes trying to find my resource but I couldn’t do anything but put keywords into a box, which did not retrieve the resource. Fortunately, I was able to fallback to their legacy catalogue where the search only took me 2 seconds to find the resource. 
 
But it’s a reminder that the people who matter most are the users of the library system. If that library loses their legacy catalogue, I’ll probably just stop using that library, as the discovery layer search interface was useless.
 
David Cook
Systems Librarian
Prosentient Systems
72/330 Wattle St
Ultimo, NSW 2007
Australia
 
Office: 02 9212 0899
Direct: 02 8005 0595
 
From: David Cook [[hidden email]] 
Sent: Wednesday, 21 November 2018 12:30 PM
To: 'Paul Poulain' <[hidden email]>; '[hidden email]' <[hidden email]>
Subject: RE: [Koha-devel] roadmap to LRM support ? [was Re: What is biblioitemnumber for?]
 
I can’t speak to LRM at all, but it reminds me how perhaps we should start moving towards uncoupling some parts of Koha and thinking more about how the different aspects should/could interact with different metadata models. 
 
I think Paul has already targeted the most important thing and that’s search. Users don’t care what metadata model is in Koha. They just want to be able to find the resources they desire. So whatever we do… I think we should put OPAC users of Koha first and then work backwards. 
 
David Cook
Systems Librarian
Prosentient Systems
72/330 Wattle St
Ultimo, NSW 2007
Australia
 
Office: 02 9212 0899
Direct: 02 8005 0595
 
From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Paul Poulain
Sent: Tuesday, 20 November 2018 11:58 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Koha-devel] roadmap to LRM support ? [was Re: What is biblioitemnumber for?]
 

Hello Stefano,

What you're pointing Stefano is very important: we must start our effort toward LRM.

Here is my 1st thoughts about it: I think that LRM support on Koha means 2 things:

  • internal handling of the LRM model. This would mean breaking the biblio/items structure of the database, managing "LRM records" (if we have), proposing LRM cataloguing tools, and changing many many other things in Koha (like MARC staging, z39/50 search, ...) I feel that this will require years and a lot of work, and for now the national catalogs are not ready to propose that.
  • new search paradigm. What the Oslo Public Library made is very interesting. when you do a search, you get the works (author/title/copyright date), then can see the expressions that exists in the library (publication dates, material type/support), then the items. Example: XXXXX I don't know in US, italy or other countries, but in France the BNF is working hard on adding "LRM" fields in their catalogue. This is done by adding new MARC fields (a lot...), that will contain an ARK to the linked data (work, authors, place, subject, ...). Last week, there was a meeting at the BNF where they presented their plans for 2019. BibLibre has not yet started to investigate the effort to create a "LRM-UNIMARC-Elastic Search" in Koha, but, for sure that's something we'll investigate in 2019. If anyone is willing to join the effort, let me know (even better: if you are interested in LRM-MARC21-Elastic, the idea being to have a flexible configuration). If anyone has information regarding LRM-MARC21-LoC plans, feel free to share !

Have I missed something ? What are your plan regarding IFLA-LRM ? What's next ?

Le 19/11/2018 à 16:58, Stefano Bargioni a écrit :
Paul, very interesting the basic historic idea. What you wrote, helps me to say that with Elasticsearch, Koha has the possibility to adopt definitely the LRM [1] model, that is going to be implemented in RDA [2].
Especially important IMHO are links among authorities. Or, better, links of any type.
Stefano 
 
[1] https://www.ifla.org/publications/node/11412
[2] http://www.rda-rsc.org/ImplementationLRMinRDA
-- 
Paul Poulain, Associé-gérant / co-owner
BibLibre, Services en logiciels libres pour les bibliothèques
BibLibre, Open Source software and services for libraries
_______________________________________________
Koha-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel
website : http://www.koha-community.org/
git : http://git.koha-community.org/
bugs : http://bugs.koha-community.org/


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git : http://git.koha-community.org/
bugs : http://bugs.koha-community.org/
-- 
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BibLibre, Services en logiciels libres pour les bibliothèques
BibLibre, Open Source software and services for libraries

_______________________________________________
Koha-devel mailing list
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