Re: [Koha] Tag 880

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Re: [Koha] Tag 880

Steven F.Baljkas
Tuesday, February 14, 2006    23:08 CST

Hi, Carol,

Just in quick response to your inquiry, which I noted before and was hoping somebody more knowledgeable on MARC coding history would respond to ...

Now, Dave Bigwood or other cognoscenti can correct this if I have it wrong, but I was given to understand some years ago by an authority I trust that fields like 880 are basically the vestigal remains of the inadequacy of earlier computer systems. When they were conceived, computers were just beginning to be able to handle more than Latin letters with the occasional accent (whereas now we are almost at the point where alternate scripts could be encoded within the same field, as was originally desired/intended -- see AACR).

I don't know what Koha's coding of the various scripts used by various languages allows for, but I understood it could handle both roman and non-roman scripts at the same time.

***If that is correct, I don't see why you would need to use the 880 at all.

Moreover, even if you still want to do so, Carol, Koha doesn't -- that is, at present, it CAN'T -- make use of the required $6 linking subfield.*** I can't see how you would overcome that barrier without a heavy investment in programming.

While you cannot repeat the 100 and 245 in a valid MARC21 record, you can work your way around these limitations (rules) easily enough.

For example, one could opt to display a 900 field that could give an alternate graphic representation of the 100. Many ILS make use of 900 to allow for alternate forms of the 100 (an embedded authority). I should think you could add a 900 to your Koha MARC records and display.

For the 245, assuming that one is using the 245 for the title coded in the actual non-roman script of the language, one could make use of the 242, Translation of the Title by Cataloguing Agency, to record the romanized transcription and translation. Alternatively, one could make use of a 246.

If neither of these solutions is satisfactory/to your liking, as my cataloguing instructor would say, there are always Notes.

Whatever you decide to do, just be sure to save your original records first in case you need to revert back to them at a later stage.

Hope this helps a bit.

Cheers,
Steven F. Baljkas
library tech at large
Koha neophyte
Winnipeg, MB, Canada

P.S. If you still get no response from people with actual experience with the 880, I would suggest writing to one of the language areas at LC that would have recourse to it to see what they would suggest.

============================================================
From: Carol Ku <[hidden email]>
Date: 2006/02/14 Tue PM 02:12:07 CST
To: Koha Mailing List <[hidden email]>,
        Koha Windows <[hidden email]>
Subject: [Koha] Tag 880

Have anyone successfully imported MARC record with tag 880?  In Library of Congress, this field contains information of book stored in its native language.
   
  In MARC records, there seem to be some fields to match the information in tag 880 to 245(title), 100 (author name) etc... But I know Koha only has the subfield structure.
   
  If anyone has used the tag 880, I would like to seek your advice in this area.  Thank you.

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Re: Re: [Koha] Tag 880

Joshua Ferraro-3
On Tue, Feb 14, 2006 at 11:20:49PM -0600, Steven F. Baljkas wrote:
> Moreover, even if you still want to do so, Carol, Koha doesn't --
> that is, at present, it CAN'T -- make use of the required $6 linking
> subfield.*** I can't see how you would overcome that barrier without a
> heavy investment in programming.
Actually, Koha CAN make use of the $6 linking subfield in tag 880. It
requires no programming, just about a minute of time setting up the
framework. See here:
http://koha.liblime.com/cgi-bin/koha/acqui.simple/addbiblio.pl

(tab 4)

To set up 880 $6 in your Koha system do the following:

Go the the Koha administration page:

/cgi-bin/koha/admin-home.pl

Click on 'Biblio framework'
Click on 'MARC structure' for the 'default framework'
at the bottom of the page, click on 'Add New MARC Tag'
Type in the number (880), Label for intranet and OPAC (ALTERNATE GRAPHIC REPRESENTATION), click on 'Repeatable' since 880 is repeatable.
Click on 'Save Changes.

Now you've added tag 880 and you can add $6.

>From the list, click on 'view subfields' for tag 880
Click on 'Edit Subfields'
put '6' in the Subfield and change 'managed in tab' to '4'.
Click on Save Changes.

That's it, you're done!

BTW: Steven, this is another example of you framing something in terms
of what Koha is capable of doing, when in fact, it's merely a matter
of not RTFM.

Cheers,

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Re: Re: [Koha] Tag 880

Carol Ku
Please refer to my comment in blue

Joshua Ferraro <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Tue, Feb 14, 2006 at 11:20:49PM -0600, Steven F. Baljkas wrote:
> Moreover, even if you still want to do so, Carol, Koha doesn't --
> that is, at present, it CAN'T -- make use of the required $6 linking
> subfield.*** I can't see how you would overcome that barrier without a
> heavy investment in programming.
Actually, Koha CAN make use of the $6 linking subfield in tag 880. It
requires no programming, just about a minute of time setting up the
framework. See here:
http://koha.liblime.com/cgi-bin/koha/acqui.simple/addbiblio.pl

(tab 4)

To set up 880 $6 in your Koha system do the following:

Go the the Koha administration page:

/cgi-bin/koha/admin-home.pl

Click on 'Biblio framework'
Click on 'MARC structure' for the 'default framework'
at the bottom of the page, click on 'Add New MARC Tag'
Type in the number (880), Label for intranet and OPAC (ALTERNATE GRAPHIC REPRESENTATION), click on 'Repeatable' since 880 is repeatable.
Click on 'Save Changes.

Now you've added tag 880 and you can add $6.

From the list, click on 'view subfields' for tag 880
Click on 'Edit Subfields'
put '6' in the Subfield and change 'managed in tab' to '4'.
Click on Save Changes.

That's it, you're done!
 
i think the $6 linking field is different from a regular subfield a, b or c etc.
In MARC, all the information on the book will be stored in the native language in tag 880.  Then they use $6 linking field to tie 880 to tag 100 for Name etc... so e.g. 880 $6100 a.... so this tag means information stored here is the author name (designated by code $6100) in e.g Chinese.  $6 is not a regular subfield....


BTW: Steven, this is another example of you framing something in terms
of what Koha is capable of doing, when in fact, it's merely a matter
of not RTFM.

Cheers,

--
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President, Technology migration, training, maintenance, support
LibLime Featuring Koha Open-Source ILS
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Re: Re: [Koha] Tag 880

Joshua Ferraro-3
On Fri, Feb 24, 2006 at 12:26:29PM -0800, Carol Ku wrote:
> i think the $6 linking field is different from a regular
> subfield a, b or c
> etc.
>
> In MARC, all the information on the book will be stored in the native
> language in tag 880.  Then they use $6 linking field to tie 880 to tag 100
> for Name etc... so e.g. 880 $6100 a.... so this tag means information
> stored here is the author name (designated by code $6100) in e.g Chinese.
> $6 is not a regular subfield....
OK ... first let's discuss what you're trying to do. I have had two
years of Chinese language classes so I know that there are several
ways to represent Chinese. Are you attempting to put 'pinyin' in the
100a and then link to the actual characters in 880? What is your goal
in using the 880?

Cheers,

--
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President, Technology       migration, training, maintenance, support
LibLime                                Featuring Koha Open-Source ILS
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Re: Re: [Koha] Tag 880

Carol Ku
You are perfectly right.  I noticed that most libraries such as Library of Congress, they represent Chinese pinyin in tag 100, and this piece of info is linked to tag 880 $6100 and with other related subfields etc...
 
We would like to do the following:
 
1) save the pinyin and Chinese in Koha.
2) Display Chinese info in OPAC
3) Allow user to search using pinyin if they don't have Chinese input
 
Since Koha display only one line item for title, author etc, we are thinking may be we need to use MARCEdit to tweak tag 100 to 880 $6100.  I was advised by others that I should instead designate new tag e.g. 900 for tag 880 $6100, 901 for tag 880 $6245 etc.
 
To make things more complicated, MARCEdit does not seem to recognize the $6 link either.  So it will treat all tag 880 as one tag.
Joshua Ferraro <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Fri, Feb 24, 2006 at 12:26:29PM -0800, Carol Ku wrote:
> i think the $6 linking field is different from a regular
> subfield a, b or c
> etc.
>
> In MARC, all the information on the book will be stored in the native
> language in tag 880. Then they use $6 linking field to tie 880 to tag 100
> for Name etc... so e.g. 880 $6100 a.... so this tag means information
> stored here is the author name (designated by code $6100) in e.g Chinese.
> $6 is not a regular subfield....
OK ... first let's discuss what you're trying to do. I have had two
years of Chinese language classes so I know that there are several
ways to represent Chinese. Are you attempting to put 'pinyin' in the
100a and then link to the actual characters in 880? What is your goal
in using the 880?

Cheers,

--
Joshua Ferraro VENDOR SERVICES FOR OPEN-SOURCE SOFTWARE
President, Technology migration, training, maintenance, support
LibLime Featuring Koha Open-Source ILS
[hidden email] |Full Demos at http://liblime.com/koha |1(888)KohaILS

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Re: Re: Re: [Koha] Tag 880

Joshua Ferraro-3
In reply to this post by Steven F.Baljkas
OK ... sorry it's taken so long for a response on this, I'm currently
involved in a migration for a client....here goes:

First off, thanks for asking this question, in the process of answering it
I discovered and fixed two bugs in the Koha MARC editor (so before you
try this I'd suggest updating Biblio.pm and addbiblio.pl to the latest
CVS versions, ask me for details if you need to).

So, using the Koha MARC editor, I did a bit of original MARC cataloging
for a Chinese language book. koha.liblime.com, like Carol's Koha, runs
on UTF-8, so it can easily store and display any UTF-8 Characters. Here
is the record:

http://opac.liblime.com/cgi-bin/koha/opac-MARCdetail.pl?bib=23717

You'll notice that I used the 880 Linkage fields to add the pinyin
as specified in the MARC standard. The interesting bit is that although
Koha does not yet understand how to treat the 880 $6 (which as far as
I can tell is a true exception to the rule), a keyword search for the
pinyin does in fact bring up the record. (author and title won't work
however). So that's good, not great, but good.

Notice that there are also Linkage entries in the 100 and 245 tags: it
goes both ways. I understand how this could be used by the system to
not only link the two for searching, but also to generate the proper
rules of the associated 880 tag. Of course, understanding how it SHOULD
work, doesn't mean it does yet ... but keep reading, it gets better,
I promise.

As I understand it, one of the ways 880 can be used is for transliteration,
that is, storing different ways to represent the same language. Now, here's
the problem with 880 in MARC: it's far too limited for what I'd like you
to be able to do. First, it doesn't allow any fine distinctions for different
'scripts'. You can, in fact, specify the kind of script you're linking
but you only have the following choices:

(3 Arabic
(B Latin
$1 Chinese, Japanese, Korean
(N Cyrillic
(2 Hebrew

However, at least in Standard Mandarin, which I studied, there are no
less than five ways to represent the language: traditional hanzi, simple
hanzi, pinyin, Yale and Wade-Giles (well, there's also Zhuyinfuhao, but I
assume you are not tailoring to youngsters). MARC is sadly lacking in that
you can only provide a one-to-one mapping and thus only include two
representation variations.

But let's not stop there. In addition to there being lots of different
ways to represent the Chinese language, there are also many ways to
_encode_ _each_ representation. UTF-8 and Big-5 are two that come to
mind. I suspect this is where most of the problem comes from in the
first place: your students being at keyboards without the ability to
encode in the proper way to search the traditional catalog.

Here comes Koha to the rescue, and here's what I would suggest you start
doing. First, have a look at what it looks like:

http://opac.liblime.com/cgi-bin/koha/opac-MARCdetail.pl?bib=23719

What you are looking at is a record for a Chinese language book that
I cataloged using Koha's MARC editor after making several minor
adjustments to the Koha MARC Framework. Without breaking any MARC
rules, using local use fields, and using Koha's 'search also'
feature, you can find that record using a keyword, author, or
title search using ANY of UTF-8, Big5, pinyin, Yale, or Wade-Giles.
But don't stop there, you can add as many transliterations as you
like, there is literally no limit. Oh ... and feel free to leave
those 880s in there, some day Koha will be able to handle them
as well.

Eat your heart out Voyager :-).

--
Joshua Ferraro               VENDOR SERVICES FOR OPEN-SOURCE SOFTWARE
President, Technology       migration, training, maintenance, support
LibLime                                Featuring Koha Open-Source ILS
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Re: Re: Re: [Koha] Tag 880

Carol Ku
Joshua:
You are wonderful!!!  You mention you used the Koha MARC edit in catalogue, that means you manually enter the Chinese books in koha catalogue, and not download the record from some libraries?
 
Pardon me if this question appears to be silly.  But your input is very helpful still.
 
Carol

Joshua Ferraro <[hidden email]> wrote:
OK ... sorry it's taken so long for a response on this, I'm currently
involved in a migration for a client....here goes:

First off, thanks for asking this question, in the process of answering it
I discovered and fixed two bugs in the Koha MARC editor (so before you
try this I'd suggest updating Biblio.pm and addbiblio.pl to the latest
CVS versions, ask me for details if you need to).

So, using the Koha MARC editor, I did a bit of original MARC cataloging
for a Chinese language book. koha.liblime.com, like Carol's Koha, runs
on UTF-8, so it can easily store and display any UTF-8 Characters. Here
is the record:

http://opac.liblime.com/cgi-bin/koha/opac-MARCdetail.pl?bib=23717

You'll notice that I used the 880 Linkage fields to add the pinyin
as specified in the MARC standard. The interesting bit is that although
Koha does not yet understand how to treat the 880 $6 (which as far as
I can tell is a true exception to the rule), a keyword search for the
pinyin does in fact bring up the record. (author and title won't work
however). So that's good, not great, but good.

Notice that there are also Linkage entries in the 100 and 245 tags: it
goes both ways. I understand how this could be used by the system to
not only link the two for searching, but also to generate the proper
rules of the associated 880 tag. Of course, understanding how it SHOULD
work, doesn't mean it does yet ... but keep reading, it gets better,
I promise.

As I understand it, one of the ways 880 can be used is for transliteration,
that is, storing different ways to represent the same language. Now, here's
the problem with 880 in MARC: it's far too limited for what I'd like you
to be able to do. First, it doesn't allow any fine distinctions for different
'scripts'. You can, in fact, specify the kind of script you're linking
but you only have the following choices:

(3 Arabic
(B Latin
$1 Chinese, Japanese, Korean
(N Cyrillic
(2 Hebrew

However, at least in Standard Mandarin, which I studied, there are no
less than five ways to represent the language: traditional hanzi, simple
hanzi, pinyin, Yale and Wade-Giles (well, there's also Zhuyinfuhao, but I
assume you are not tailoring to youngsters). MARC is sadly lacking in that
you can only provide a one-to-one mapping and thus only include two
representation variations.

But let's not stop there. In addition to there being lots of different
ways to represent the Chinese language, there are also many ways to
_encode_ _each_ representation. UTF-8 and Big-5 are two that come to
mind. I suspect this is where most of the problem comes from in the
first place: your students being at keyboards without the ability to
encode in the proper way to search the traditional catalog.

Here comes Koha to the rescue, and here's what I would suggest you start
doing. First, have a look at what it looks like:

http://opac.liblime.com/cgi-bin/koha/opac-MARCdetail.pl?bib=23719

What you are looking at is a record for a Chinese language book that
I cataloged using Koha's MARC editor after making several minor
adjustments to the Koha MARC Framework. Without breaking any MARC
rules, using local use fields, and using Koha's 'search also'
feature, you can find that record using a keyword, author, or
title search using ANY of UTF-8, Big5, pinyin, Yale, or Wade-Giles.
But don't stop there, you can add as many transliterations as you
like, there is literally no limit. Oh ... and feel free to leave
those 880s in there, some day Koha will be able to handle them
as well.

Eat your heart out Voyager :-).

--
Joshua Ferraro VENDOR SERVICES FOR OPEN-SOURCE SOFTWARE
President, Technology migration, training, maintenance, support
LibLime Featuring Koha Open-Source ILS
[hidden email] |Full Demos at http://liblime.com/koha |1(888)KohaILS


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Re: Re: Re: [Koha] Tag 880

Joshua Ferraro-3
On Sat, Feb 25, 2006 at 09:39:43AM -0800, Carol Ku wrote:
> Joshua:
> You are wonderful!!!  You mention you used the Koha MARC edit in catalogue,
> that means you manually enter the Chinese books in koha catalogue, and not
> download the record from some libraries?
Yep, that's right. So long as you have UTF-8 set up correctly, you can input
as well as display any utf-8 you want in Koha.

Now, let me warn you that the Koha MARC editor is still not perfect
and I would still recommend you use an external MARC editor if that
has been your cataloging practice thusfar. You should be able to set
it up to handle a repeatable 900, 945, etc. tag, with the appropriate
subfields to handle the transcriptions (don't limit yourself to just
the title/author, feel free to include any others you want). So long
as you set up your MARC Framework to handle the 9XX fields and link
to them via the search points (ie 245a will need a 'search also'
entry for '945a','945c' (and you might as well put '245c' in there
while you're at it)), it will work without having to use Koha's
editor. If you need more specific implementation details let me
know.

> Pardon me if this question appears to be silly.  But your input is
> very helpful still.
No question is silly :-). I'm glad I could be of some help.

Sincerely,

--
Joshua Ferraro               VENDOR SERVICES FOR OPEN-SOURCE SOFTWARE
President, Technology       migration, training, maintenance, support
LibLime                                Featuring Koha Open-Source ILS
[hidden email] |Full Demos at http://liblime.com/koha |1(888)KohaILS


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Re: Re: Re: [Koha] Tag 880

Carol Ku
So if we were to download books directly from other libraries... it may involve lots of record code editing, as all the Chinese info in other libraries will be entered into tag 880. 
 
e.g.  100  Author name in pinyin
        245  Author name in pinyin
        880 $6100  Author name in chinese
        880 $6245  Title name in Chinese
 
With the MARC record downloaded, I wonder if I can swap the information in tag 880 $6100 with that of tag 100, so that when I upload the record into Koha, OPAC will display the author name in Chinese instead of pinyin.
 
 I suspect MARCEdit will not be able to recognize the $6 link.  So I cannot designate the info at tag 100 to be swapped with info at tag 880$100 and not say 880$245.
 
Anyway, Joshua, you have been of a great help.  Thank you.
 
Carol
Joshua Ferraro <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Sat, Feb 25, 2006 at 09:39:43AM -0800, Carol Ku wrote:
> Joshua:
> You are wonderful!!! You mention you used the Koha MARC edit in catalogue,
> that means you manually enter the Chinese books in koha catalogue, and not
> download the record from some libraries?
Yep, that's right. So long as you have UTF-8 set up correctly, you can input
as well as display any utf-8 you want in Koha.

Now, let me warn you that the Koha MARC editor is still not perfect
and I would still recommend you use an external MARC editor if that
has been your cataloging practice thusfar. You should be able to set
it up to handle a repeatable 900, 945, etc. tag, with the appropriate
subfields to handle the transcriptions (don't limit yourself to just
the title/author, feel free to include any others you want). So long
as you set up your MARC Framework to handle the 9XX fields and link
to them via the search points (ie 245a will need a 'search also'
entry for '945a','945c' (and you might as well put '245c' in there
while you're at it)), it will work without having to use Koha's
editor. If you need more specific implementation details let me
know.

> Pardon me if this question appears to be silly. But your input is
> very helpful still.
No question is silly :-). I'm glad I could be of some help.

Sincerely,

--
Joshua Ferraro VENDOR SERVICES FOR OPEN-SOURCE SOFTWARE
President, Technology migration, training, maintenance, support
LibLime Featuring Koha Open-Source ILS
[hidden email] |Full Demos at http://liblime.com/koha |1(888)KohaILS


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