Koha users wiki page outdated, use HEA

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Koha users wiki page outdated, use HEA

paul POULAIN-3

Hello,

someone pointed me the https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/KohaUsers page.

The French libraries you can see here are so outdated that it's funny: most libraries are supposed to be in version 2.x, supported by me (not BibLibre. So more than 10 years old data...)

Other pages are also highly outdated, almost nothing with the current version numbering schema. And now we have HEA (available since 3.18 IIRC)

I propose to:

  • drop an email to all contacts saying "you're the contact for the wiki page https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/KohaUsers, the information here is outdated, please activate HEA (<<some explanations about hea>>)"
  • update the wiki pages to add a big warn on top of each, saying "this page is outdated, see hea.koha-community.org")

Any objection ?

-- 
Paul Poulain, Associé-gérant / co-owner
BibLibre, Services en logiciels libres pour les bibliothèques
BibLibre, Open Source software and services for libraries

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Re: Koha users wiki page outdated, use HEA

Michael Kuhn
Hi Paul

 > someone pointed me the https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/KohaUsers
 > page.

Calling this page says: "There is currently no text in this page."

Probably you meant https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Koha_Users and
pages like https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/KohaUsers/Europe

 > The French libraries you can see here are so outdated that it's funny:
 > most libraries are supposed to be in version 2.x, supported by me (not
 > BibLibre. So more than 10 years old data...)
 >
 > Other pages are also highly outdated, almost nothing with the current
 > version numbering schema. And now we have HEA (available since 3.18
 > IIRC)

Also in HEA I see there are 1'693 (unnamed) libraries listed, but only
35 of the area really up to date (meaning working woith Koha 18.05.00 or
18.05.01). Compared to the assumed 15'000 Koha libraries this is only
0.2% of all libraries that we can be sure of they are really up to date.

 > I propose to:
 >
 >   * drop an email to all contacts saying "you're the contact for the
 >     wiki page https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/KohaUsers, the
 >     information here is outdated, please activate HEA (<<some
 >     explanations about hea>>)"
 >   * update the wiki pages to add a big warn on top of each, saying
 > "this page is outdated, see hea.koha-community.org")

Not all information on this page is outdated - only the untended data is
outdated. I feel personally responsible for some of the data and can
affirm this data is not outdated.

 > Any objection ?

HEA however doesn't give the same information as the "Koha_Users" pages
give. The users page shows

* the country
* the location
* library type
* library name (often with URL to the OPAC, most interesting to me - but
if it's not there I can search for the OPAC URL in Google using the
library's name)
* and more information

to very SPECIFIC libraries - all of which is missing in HEA since
https://hea.koha-community.org/ gives just numbers numbers numbers but
at least I can't imagine how to wisely interpret or use them in most
cases since I am absolutely sure they are not representative. To me
personally, the only halfway interesting thing about HEA is the page
about the use of the system preferences
https://hea.koha-community.org/systempreferences

Best wishes: Michael
--
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Re: Koha users wiki page outdated, use HEA

MartinRenvoize
Somewhat confused by that comment...

* 1693 unnamed libraries.. I see lots of names here.. am i missing something: https://hea.koha-community.org/libraries ?
* 35 really up to date.. t's useful to see the distribution of installed versions.. the HA stats are fed directly from koha installs and as such are automatically kept up to date. I don't really see what your point was there?
* It's easier to opt in to HEA than it is to manually add yourself to the wiki pages (if you even know of the existence of the wiki pages)
* Clicking through to the library detail page in HEA shows all the information and more doesn't it: https://hea.koha-community.org/libraries/274 - If there's something missing do feel free to request it's addition.

I would happily agree with Pauls proposed approach myself and I'd love to see more use of HEA.. perhaps this would act as another little reminder of HEA's existence and a drive to get more libraries to opt in.

The views expressed here are my own and not the views of the company I work for.

Martin Renvoize

Development Manager


 

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On Mon, 9 Jul 2018 at 08:54, Michael Kuhn <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Paul

 > someone pointed me the https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/KohaUsers
 > page.

Calling this page says: "There is currently no text in this page."

Probably you meant https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Koha_Users and
pages like https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/KohaUsers/Europe

 > The French libraries you can see here are so outdated that it's funny:
 > most libraries are supposed to be in version 2.x, supported by me (not
 > BibLibre. So more than 10 years old data...)
 >
 > Other pages are also highly outdated, almost nothing with the current
 > version numbering schema. And now we have HEA (available since 3.18
 > IIRC)

Also in HEA I see there are 1'693 (unnamed) libraries listed, but only
35 of the area really up to date (meaning working woith Koha 18.05.00 or
18.05.01). Compared to the assumed 15'000 Koha libraries this is only
0.2% of all libraries that we can be sure of they are really up to date.

 > I propose to:
 >
 >   * drop an email to all contacts saying "you're the contact for the
 >     wiki page https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/KohaUsers, the
 >     information here is outdated, please activate HEA (<<some
 >     explanations about hea>>)"
 >   * update the wiki pages to add a big warn on top of each, saying
 > "this page is outdated, see hea.koha-community.org")

Not all information on this page is outdated - only the untended data is
outdated. I feel personally responsible for some of the data and can
affirm this data is not outdated.

 > Any objection ?

HEA however doesn't give the same information as the "Koha_Users" pages
give. The users page shows

* the country
* the location
* library type
* library name (often with URL to the OPAC, most interesting to me - but
if it's not there I can search for the OPAC URL in Google using the
library's name)
* and more information

to very SPECIFIC libraries - all of which is missing in HEA since
https://hea.koha-community.org/ gives just numbers numbers numbers but
at least I can't imagine how to wisely interpret or use them in most
cases since I am absolutely sure they are not representative. To me
personally, the only halfway interesting thing about HEA is the page
about the use of the system preferences
https://hea.koha-community.org/systempreferences

Best wishes: Michael
--
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Re: Koha users wiki page outdated, use HEA

paul POULAIN-3
In reply to this post by Michael Kuhn
Le 09/07/2018 à 09:54, Michael Kuhn a écrit :
> Hi Paul
Hi Michael,
>
> > someone pointed me the https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/KohaUsers
> > page.
>
> Calling this page says: "There is currently no text in this page."
>
> Probably you meant https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Koha_Users and
> pages like https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/KohaUsers/Europe
right, sorry.

>
> > The French libraries you can see here are so outdated that it's funny:
> > most libraries are supposed to be in version 2.x, supported by me (not
> > BibLibre. So more than 10 years old data...)
> >
> > Other pages are also highly outdated, almost nothing with the current
> > version numbering schema. And now we have HEA (available since 3.18
> > IIRC)
>
> Also in HEA I see there are 1'693 (unnamed) libraries listed, but only
> 35 of the area really up to date (meaning working woith Koha 18.05.00
> or 18.05.01). Compared to the assumed 15'000 Koha libraries this is
> only 0.2% of all libraries that we can be sure of they are really up
> to date.
The Koha version provided by HEA is uptodate. It's not HEA's
responsibility if the library's Koha is not ;) (disclaimer : most of
BibLibre customers are sending data to HEA, and we're currently
upgrading them to 17.11, we never deploy the most recent version for
stability & translation reasons)
Note : we can/should improve HEA rendering of data we collect.

> to very SPECIFIC libraries - all of which is missing in HEA since
> https://hea.koha-community.org/ gives just numbers numbers numbers but
> at least I can't imagine how to wisely interpret or use them in most
> cases since I am absolutely sure they are not representative. To me
> personally, the only halfway interesting thing about HEA is the page
> about the use of the system preferences
> https://hea.koha-community.org/systempreferences
>
I don't understand what you mean here :\

--
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BibLibre, Services en logiciels libres pour les bibliothèques
BibLibre, Open Source software and services for libraries

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Re: Koha users wiki page outdated, use HEA

Michael Kuhn
In reply to this post by MartinRenvoize
Hi Martin

 > * 1693 unnamed libraries.. I see lots of names here.. am i missing
 > something: https://hea.koha-community.org/libraries ?

Actually I didn't remember https://hea.koha-community.org/libraries -
thanks for the hint!

However https://hea.koha-community.org/ lists a number of 1'693
libraries while https://hea.koha-community.org/libraries lists only
about 1'140 of them by name. Why is that so?

Quite some of them use letters that I just can't read - like مكتبة كلية
الزراعة or สำนักพัฒนาโครงสร้างและระบบบริหารงานบุคคล - that's OK with me,
but that said it is still a fact that without a transcription I just
can't read the stuff...

 > * 35 really up to date.. t's useful to see the distribution of
 > installed  versions.. the HA stats are fed directly from koha installs
 > and as such are automatically kept up to date.

Yes I see that.

 > I don't really see what your point was there?

Paul was mentioning that many French libraries are or seem to be
outdated - "most libraries are supposed to be in version 2.x [...] Other
pages are also highly outdated, almost nothing with the current version
numbering schema."

In https://hea.koha-community.org/systempreferences of the aformentioned
1'693 libraries for even less than 1'140 of them the version number is
given. But how representative are these? Comparing just the data from
libraries.org (which lists about 5'000 Koha libraries) for example the
distribution of countries is:

* USA: 1'772 of 5'000 in Libraries.org / 149 of 1'693 at HEA
* Turkey: 961 of 5'000 in Libraries.org / 3 of 1'693 at HEA
* France: 305 of 5'000 in Libraries.org / 133 of 1'693 at HEA
* Great Britain: 232 of 5'000 in Libraries.org / 31 of 1'693 at HEA
* Germany: 41 of 5'000 in Libraries.org / 17 of 1'693 at HEA

Now is libraries.org more representative or HEA... or none? To me it
seems like some people are using libraries.org, some are using HEA or
even both - but most don't use or even want to use anything at all.

As I understand you need at least Koha 3.18 to use HEA even if for some
libraries version numbers like 3.10 or 3.14 are given. Does this mean
the other almost 14'000 Koha libraries are not even on Koha 3.18? Of
course I can interpret, but since the numbers are not representative at
all, I can just see that out of this unrepresentative sample of 1'693
libraries 35 (2%) are really up to date. 35 of 15'000 almost unknwon
libraries is even just 0.2%. What does it really mean?

Maybe I'm the wrong person. Maybe someone should write here about his
HEA expoerience who is actually using these numbers and explain in which
way he can make use of these numbers... me, I'm probably just stunned by
them.

 > * It's easier to opt in to HEA than it is to manually add yourself to
 > the wiki pages (if you even know of the existence of the wiki pages)

Sure, I do know that, but still of the estimated 15'000 Koha libraries a
maximum of 11% have opted to use HEA so far.

But on the other hand if you add yourself in the Koha wiki (or let your
support company add you) you can decide yourself what to add.

 > * Clicking through to the library detail page in HEA shows all the
 > information and more doesn't it:
 > https://hea.koha-community.org/libraries/274

Yes, but of course this is only true for the libraries that opt to add
themselves to HEA. It seems many libraries don't know about HEA oder
they think to have good reasons to not or never add themselves to HEA.
Some of these reasons may be:

* data protection - some may consider at least some of the data as delicate
* data security - who knows what data is really submitted? So better
don't submit at all
* the IT department doesn't allow any outside connections
* exposure is not wanted in any way (for example with company libraries,
the library of the NSA/KGB, private installations, etc)

I'm not a statistician but I doubt we will ever have what such a giy
would call representative data in HEA or anywhere. So I think it is good
to have ALL available data i. e. including the data in the Koha wiki and
not deleting them.

 > - If there's something
 > missing do feel free to request it's addition.

I do not request anything but I do indicate that the Koha wiki offers
also e-mail addresses and names and some other information in the
"notes" column. Last but not least, the information in the Koha wiki
(unlike to HEA) can be edited by anyone who's got some information.
Nothing has to be activated and anyone can do it without asking for
permission. You just need an account for the Koha wiki.

Best wishes: Michael
--
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Re: Koha users wiki page outdated, use HEA

Michael Kuhn
In reply to this post by paul POULAIN-3
Hi Paul

 >> to very SPECIFIC libraries - all of which is missing in HEA since
 >> https://hea.koha-community.org/ gives just numbers numbers numbers
 >> but
 >> at least I can't imagine how to wisely interpret or use them in most
 >> cases since I am absolutely sure they are not representative. To me
 >> personally, the only halfway interesting thing about HEA is the page
 >> about the use of the system preferences
 >> https://hea.koha-community.org/systempreferences
 >>
 > I don't understand what you mean here :\

Well, maybe I don't know the goals of HEA. But I imagine HEA should not
just show numbers but the shown numbers should be somehow representative
or (best but impossible) the numbers should be all numbers of all Koha
libraries i. e. the complete numbers. And of course there should be
someone (maybe the developers?) that has actual use for these numbers.

At the moment I just see these numbers are probably representative for
Koha libraries using HEA (even if I have some question marks) and I
don't know what to make of this.

Personally I don't feel the need to go deeper into this, let's say I
just expressed how I feel about HEA and (automatically generated)
statistics in general...

Best wishes: Michael
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Re: Koha users wiki page outdated, use HEA

Chris Cormack-7
In reply to this post by Michael Kuhn


On 9 July 2018 9:43:27 PM NZST, Michael Kuhn <[hidden email]> wrote:

>Hi Martin
>
> > * 1693 unnamed libraries.. I see lots of names here.. am i missing
> > something: https://hea.koha-community.org/libraries ?
>
>Actually I didn't remember https://hea.koha-community.org/libraries -
>thanks for the hint!
>
>However https://hea.koha-community.org/ lists a number of 1'693
>libraries while https://hea.koha-community.org/libraries lists only
>about 1'140 of them by name. Why is that so?
>
>Quite some of them use letters that I just can't read - like مكتبة كلية
>
>الزراعة or สำนักพัฒนาโครงสร้างและระบบบริหารงานบุคคล - that's OK with
>me,
>but that said it is still a fact that without a transcription I just
>can't read the stuff...
>

Really? Really? You are going to call someones language stuff and denigrate just because you can't read it?

I stopped reading your email at this point.

Chris

> > * 35 really up to date.. t's useful to see the distribution of
>> installed  versions.. the HA stats are fed directly from koha
>installs
> > and as such are automatically kept up to date.
>
>Yes I see that.
>
> > I don't really see what your point was there?
>
>Paul was mentioning that many French libraries are or seem to be
>outdated - "most libraries are supposed to be in version 2.x [...]
>Other
>pages are also highly outdated, almost nothing with the current version
>
>numbering schema."
>
>In https://hea.koha-community.org/systempreferences of the
>aformentioned
>1'693 libraries for even less than 1'140 of them the version number is
>given. But how representative are these? Comparing just the data from
>libraries.org (which lists about 5'000 Koha libraries) for example the
>distribution of countries is:
>
>* USA: 1'772 of 5'000 in Libraries.org / 149 of 1'693 at HEA
>* Turkey: 961 of 5'000 in Libraries.org / 3 of 1'693 at HEA
>* France: 305 of 5'000 in Libraries.org / 133 of 1'693 at HEA
>* Great Britain: 232 of 5'000 in Libraries.org / 31 of 1'693 at HEA
>* Germany: 41 of 5'000 in Libraries.org / 17 of 1'693 at HEA
>
>Now is libraries.org more representative or HEA... or none? To me it
>seems like some people are using libraries.org, some are using HEA or
>even both - but most don't use or even want to use anything at all.
>
>As I understand you need at least Koha 3.18 to use HEA even if for some
>
>libraries version numbers like 3.10 or 3.14 are given. Does this mean
>the other almost 14'000 Koha libraries are not even on Koha 3.18? Of
>course I can interpret, but since the numbers are not representative at
>
>all, I can just see that out of this unrepresentative sample of 1'693
>libraries 35 (2%) are really up to date. 35 of 15'000 almost unknwon
>libraries is even just 0.2%. What does it really mean?
>
>Maybe I'm the wrong person. Maybe someone should write here about his
>HEA expoerience who is actually using these numbers and explain in
>which
>way he can make use of these numbers... me, I'm probably just stunned
>by
>them.
>
>> * It's easier to opt in to HEA than it is to manually add yourself to
> > the wiki pages (if you even know of the existence of the wiki pages)
>
>Sure, I do know that, but still of the estimated 15'000 Koha libraries
>a
>maximum of 11% have opted to use HEA so far.
>
>But on the other hand if you add yourself in the Koha wiki (or let your
>
>support company add you) you can decide yourself what to add.
>
> > * Clicking through to the library detail page in HEA shows all the
> > information and more doesn't it:
> > https://hea.koha-community.org/libraries/274
>
>Yes, but of course this is only true for the libraries that opt to add
>themselves to HEA. It seems many libraries don't know about HEA oder
>they think to have good reasons to not or never add themselves to HEA.
>Some of these reasons may be:
>
>* data protection - some may consider at least some of the data as
>delicate
>* data security - who knows what data is really submitted? So better
>don't submit at all
>* the IT department doesn't allow any outside connections
>* exposure is not wanted in any way (for example with company
>libraries,
>the library of the NSA/KGB, private installations, etc)
>
>I'm not a statistician but I doubt we will ever have what such a giy
>would call representative data in HEA or anywhere. So I think it is
>good
>to have ALL available data i. e. including the data in the Koha wiki
>and
>not deleting them.
>
> > - If there's something
> > missing do feel free to request it's addition.
>
>I do not request anything but I do indicate that the Koha wiki offers
>also e-mail addresses and names and some other information in the
>"notes" column. Last but not least, the information in the Koha wiki
>(unlike to HEA) can be edited by anyone who's got some information.
>Nothing has to be activated and anyone can do it without asking for
>permission. You just need an account for the Koha wiki.
>
>Best wishes: Michael
>--
>Geschäftsführer · Diplombibliothekar BBS, Informatiker eidg.
>Fachausweis
>Admin Kuhn GmbH · Pappelstrasse 20 · 4123 Allschwil · Schweiz
>T 0041 (0)61 261 55 61 · E [hidden email] · W www.adminkuhn.ch
>_______________________________________________
>Koha-devel mailing list
>[hidden email]
>http://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel
>website : http://www.koha-community.org/
>git : http://git.koha-community.org/
>bugs : http://bugs.koha-community.org/

--
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Re: Koha users wiki page outdated, use HEA

Michael Kuhn
Hi Chris

 >> Quite some of them use letters that I just can't read - like مكتبة كلية
 >>
 >> الزراعة or สำนักพัฒนาโครงสร้างและระบบบริหารงานบุคคล - that's OK with
 >> me, but that said it is still a fact that without a transcription I
 >> just can't read the stuff...
 >>
 >
 > Really? Really? You are going to call someones language stuff and
 > denigrate just because you can't read it?
 >
 > I stopped reading your email at this point.

I'm sorry if this is not the correct word to express what I wanted to
say. I didn't intend to "denigrate" anything (I didn't even know the
word "denigrate" until now...), I just wanted to say that I can't read
or even understand these letters at all.

I wasn't aware the word "stuff" is "denigrating" letters I cannot read,
I was just using it in the neutral sense of "material"... I now
consulted the Merriam-Webster dictionary (
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/stuff ) and saw the word has
very different meanings, among them

4 a : literary or artistic production

b : writing, discourse, talk, or ideas of little value : trash

As you know I'm not a native English speaker. You probably recognized
4.b while I meant 4.a. However, I hope I now made clear what I wanted to
say.

Best wishes: Michael
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Re: Koha users wiki page outdated, use HEA

Jonathan Druart
In reply to this post by Michael Kuhn
There are 1005 installations and 1711 libraries.
Since Hea v2 (bug 18066) you can submit information at library level (see /cgi-bin/koha/admin/usage_statistics.pl, "Libraries information: yes").

The list of the data shared is available from the hea website, about > documentation.
There is also a "Why these statistics are useful" section

Regards,
Jonathan

On Mon, 9 Jul 2018 at 06:43 Michael Kuhn <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Martin

 > * 1693 unnamed libraries.. I see lots of names here.. am i missing
 > something: https://hea.koha-community.org/libraries ?

Actually I didn't remember https://hea.koha-community.org/libraries -
thanks for the hint!

However https://hea.koha-community.org/ lists a number of 1'693
libraries while https://hea.koha-community.org/libraries lists only
about 1'140 of them by name. Why is that so?

Quite some of them use letters that I just can't read - like مكتبة كلية
الزراعة or สำนักพัฒนาโครงสร้างและระบบบริหารงานบุคคล - that's OK with me,
but that said it is still a fact that without a transcription I just
can't read the stuff...

 > * 35 really up to date.. t's useful to see the distribution of
 > installed  versions.. the HA stats are fed directly from koha installs
 > and as such are automatically kept up to date.

Yes I see that.

 > I don't really see what your point was there?

Paul was mentioning that many French libraries are or seem to be
outdated - "most libraries are supposed to be in version 2.x [...] Other
pages are also highly outdated, almost nothing with the current version
numbering schema."

In https://hea.koha-community.org/systempreferences of the aformentioned
1'693 libraries for even less than 1'140 of them the version number is
given. But how representative are these? Comparing just the data from
libraries.org (which lists about 5'000 Koha libraries) for example the
distribution of countries is:

* USA: 1'772 of 5'000 in Libraries.org / 149 of 1'693 at HEA
* Turkey: 961 of 5'000 in Libraries.org / 3 of 1'693 at HEA
* France: 305 of 5'000 in Libraries.org / 133 of 1'693 at HEA
* Great Britain: 232 of 5'000 in Libraries.org / 31 of 1'693 at HEA
* Germany: 41 of 5'000 in Libraries.org / 17 of 1'693 at HEA

Now is libraries.org more representative or HEA... or none? To me it
seems like some people are using libraries.org, some are using HEA or
even both - but most don't use or even want to use anything at all.

As I understand you need at least Koha 3.18 to use HEA even if for some
libraries version numbers like 3.10 or 3.14 are given. Does this mean
the other almost 14'000 Koha libraries are not even on Koha 3.18? Of
course I can interpret, but since the numbers are not representative at
all, I can just see that out of this unrepresentative sample of 1'693
libraries 35 (2%) are really up to date. 35 of 15'000 almost unknwon
libraries is even just 0.2%. What does it really mean?

Maybe I'm the wrong person. Maybe someone should write here about his
HEA expoerience who is actually using these numbers and explain in which
way he can make use of these numbers... me, I'm probably just stunned by
them.

 > * It's easier to opt in to HEA than it is to manually add yourself to
 > the wiki pages (if you even know of the existence of the wiki pages)

Sure, I do know that, but still of the estimated 15'000 Koha libraries a
maximum of 11% have opted to use HEA so far.

But on the other hand if you add yourself in the Koha wiki (or let your
support company add you) you can decide yourself what to add.

 > * Clicking through to the library detail page in HEA shows all the
 > information and more doesn't it:
 > https://hea.koha-community.org/libraries/274

Yes, but of course this is only true for the libraries that opt to add
themselves to HEA. It seems many libraries don't know about HEA oder
they think to have good reasons to not or never add themselves to HEA.
Some of these reasons may be:

* data protection - some may consider at least some of the data as delicate
* data security - who knows what data is really submitted? So better
don't submit at all
* the IT department doesn't allow any outside connections
* exposure is not wanted in any way (for example with company libraries,
the library of the NSA/KGB, private installations, etc)

I'm not a statistician but I doubt we will ever have what such a giy
would call representative data in HEA or anywhere. So I think it is good
to have ALL available data i. e. including the data in the Koha wiki and
not deleting them.

 > - If there's something
 > missing do feel free to request it's addition.

I do not request anything but I do indicate that the Koha wiki offers
also e-mail addresses and names and some other information in the
"notes" column. Last but not least, the information in the Koha wiki
(unlike to HEA) can be edited by anyone who's got some information.
Nothing has to be activated and anyone can do it without asking for
permission. You just need an account for the Koha wiki.

Best wishes: Michael
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