Koha demo links on koha.org

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Koha demo links on koha.org

Owen Leonard-4
I think it's inappropriate for Koha.org to link to LibLime demos,
given the fact that LibLime's demo page explicitly showcases "LibLime
Enterprise Koha," a closed version of Koha which has not been shared
with the community. Demoing LEK is useless to those who wish to
participate in the Open Source Koha. I call on LibLime to either
provide direct links to genuine Open Source Koha installations or
remove the demo links.

  -- Owen

--
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Athens County Public Libraries
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Re: Koha demo links on koha.org

nengard
Owen, I'd actually change that and say that the demo links shouldn't
be removed - there are plenty of genuine Open Source Koha
installations that can be used instead - I know that ByWater has some:
http://bywatersolutions.com/content/category/4/21/42/

Nicole

On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 7:00 AM, Owen Leonard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I think it's inappropriate for Koha.org to link to LibLime demos,
> given the fact that LibLime's demo page explicitly showcases "LibLime
> Enterprise Koha," a closed version of Koha which has not been shared
> with the community. Demoing LEK is useless to those who wish to
> participate in the Open Source Koha. I call on LibLime to either
> provide direct links to genuine Open Source Koha installations or
> remove the demo links.
>
>  -- Owen
>
> --
> Web Developer
> Athens County Public Libraries
> http://www.myacpl.org
> _______________________________________________
> Koha mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
>
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Re: Koha demo links on koha.org

Chris Nighswonger
In reply to this post by Owen Leonard-4
On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 10:00 AM, Owen Leonard <[hidden email]> wrote:
I think it's inappropriate for Koha.org to link to LibLime demos,
given the fact that LibLime's demo page explicitly showcases "LibLime
Enterprise Koha," a closed version of Koha which has not been shared
with the community. Demoing LEK is useless to those who wish to
participate in the Open Source Koha. I call on LibLime to either
provide direct links to genuine Open Source Koha installations or
remove the demo links.


+1

Kind Regards,
Chris

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Re: Koha demo links on koha.org

nengard
In reply to this post by nengard
Thomas, you misunderstood me.  I wasn't saying not to remove the links
to version of Koha that not everyone can have access to - I was saying
- don't leave the demos section blank - make sure we find a genuine
Koha demo to replace them with.  Vendors with their own versions of
Koha can have those demos on their own sites, but they don't belong on
koha.org.

Nicole

On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 6:24 PM, Thomas Dukleth <[hidden email]> wrote:

> While it is certainly inappropriate for the only linked demonstrations to
> not include running community versions of the code, I agree with Nicole
> Engard in not asking for the removal of LibLime demonstration links, at
> least at this time.  Rather than merely encouraging links to many
> demonstrations from particular support companies, I suggest that the
> support companies volunteer and/or co-operate in producing some especially
> good community demonstrations which are not an advertisement for any
> particular support company.  The French demonstrations at the French Koha
> website, http://www.koha-fr.org/ , are run by BibLibre but they do not
> contain anything which could be construed as an advertisement for
> BibLibre.
>
> Community demonstrations which do not advertise support services via
> logins, URLs, or other means should be listed first.  If some have an
> interest in providing other demonstrations which may be of interest for
> providing different configuration examples but may contain some subtle
> advertisement then those should be listed afterwords with some appropriate
> label separating them.
>
> Removing the only demonstrations now would be counter-productive.
> Furthermore, we should not push LibLime further away from the rest of the
> Koha community than they are taking themselves.  We should welcome any
> change of stance that they might have on community participation in future
> without holding anything against them.
>
> There had been a time when the only English community demonstrations were
> provided by LibLime and as long as no one else was offering any others it
> was difficult to question their use as advertising for one particular
> support company.  There are now other options and interested people should
> put those forward.
>
>
> Thomas Dukleth
> Agogme
> 109 E 9th Street, 3D
> New York, NY  10003
> USA
> http://www.agogme.com
> +1 212-674-3783
>
>
> On Thu, October 8, 2009 19:28, Nicole Engard wrote:
>> Owen, I'd actually change that and say that the demo links shouldn't
>> be removed - there are plenty of genuine Open Source Koha
>> installations that can be used instead - I know that ByWater has some:
>> http://bywatersolutions.com/content/category/4/21/42/
>>
>> Nicole
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 7:00 AM, Owen Leonard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> I think it's inappropriate for Koha.org to link to LibLime demos,
>>> given the fact that LibLime's demo page explicitly showcases "LibLime
>>> Enterprise Koha," a closed version of Koha which has not been shared
>>> with the community. Demoing LEK is useless to those who wish to
>>> participate in the Open Source Koha. I call on LibLime to either
>>> provide direct links to genuine Open Source Koha installations or
>>> remove the demo links.
>>>
>>>  -- Owen
>>>
>>> --
>>> Web Developer
>>> Athens County Public Libraries
>>> http://www.myacpl.org
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Koha mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Koha mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
>>
>
>
>
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Re: Koha demo links on koha.org

Chris Cormack-7
* Nicole Engard ([hidden email]) wrote:
> Thomas, you misunderstood me.  I wasn't saying not to remove the links
> to version of Koha that not everyone can have access to - I was saying
> - don't leave the demos section blank - make sure we find a genuine
> Koha demo to replace them with.  Vendors with their own versions of
> Koha can have those demos on their own sites, but they don't belong on
> koha.org.

I agree with Nicole, (and Owen and Chris N)
It is inappropriate to link to a version of Koha that has not been
released and isn't representative of what people can download and
install.

It is not demonstrating Koha, and surely that is the point of the demo,
to demonstrate the version of Koha you can check out from git, or
download and run, otherwise we are falsely representing what is
available.

I don't the advertising part of it is an issue at all, apart from the
fact that it is advertisting something that isn't Koha.

Chris
--
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Catalyst IT Ltd.
+64 4 803 2238
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Re: Koha demo links on koha.org

Thomas Dukleth-3
In reply to this post by nengard
While it is certainly inappropriate for the only linked demonstrations to
not include running community versions of the code, I agree with Nicole
Engard in not asking for the removal of LibLime demonstration links, at
least at this time.  Rather than merely encouraging links to many
demonstrations from particular support companies, I suggest that the
support companies volunteer and/or co-operate in producing some especially
good community demonstrations which are not an advertisement for any
particular support company.  The French demonstrations at the French Koha
website, http://www.koha-fr.org/ , are run by BibLibre but they do not
contain anything which could be construed as an advertisement for
BibLibre.

Community demonstrations which do not advertise support services via
logins, URLs, or other means should be listed first.  If some have an
interest in providing other demonstrations which may be of interest for
providing different configuration examples but may contain some subtle
advertisement then those should be listed afterwords with some appropriate
label separating them.

Removing the only demonstrations now would be counter-productive.
Furthermore, we should not push LibLime further away from the rest of the
Koha community than they are taking themselves.  We should welcome any
change of stance that they might have on community participation in future
without holding anything against them.

There had been a time when the only English community demonstrations were
provided by LibLime and as long as no one else was offering any others it
was difficult to question their use as advertising for one particular
support company.  There are now other options and interested people should
put those forward.


Thomas Dukleth
Agogme
109 E 9th Street, 3D
New York, NY  10003
USA
http://www.agogme.com
+1 212-674-3783


On Thu, October 8, 2009 19:28, Nicole Engard wrote:

> Owen, I'd actually change that and say that the demo links shouldn't
> be removed - there are plenty of genuine Open Source Koha
> installations that can be used instead - I know that ByWater has some:
> http://bywatersolutions.com/content/category/4/21/42/
>
> Nicole
>
> On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 7:00 AM, Owen Leonard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I think it's inappropriate for Koha.org to link to LibLime demos,
>> given the fact that LibLime's demo page explicitly showcases "LibLime
>> Enterprise Koha," a closed version of Koha which has not been shared
>> with the community. Demoing LEK is useless to those who wish to
>> participate in the Open Source Koha. I call on LibLime to either
>> provide direct links to genuine Open Source Koha installations or
>> remove the demo links.
>>
>>  -- Owen
>>
>> --
>> Web Developer
>> Athens County Public Libraries
>> http://www.myacpl.org
>> _______________________________________________
>> Koha mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Koha mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
>


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Re: Koha demo links on koha.org

Thomas Dukleth-3
In reply to this post by nengard
I now have a corrected understanding of Nicole's position.  However much
better it would be to have only community versions of Koha demonstrations
linked from the community website, I would rather we not advocate purity
in a manner that LibLime is liable to respond to in the most negative
manner.

At this time, I prefer that we ask LibLime to demote their non-community
demonstrations as linked from the community website in favour of community
demonstrations with no subtle advertising.  I prefer a gentler approach to
LibLime than asking them to eliminate links to their demonstrations.  In
suggesting this approach, I am hoping that we would be encouraging LibLime
to act more favourably towards the community which I hope that they would
reciprocate.

I am advocating this less than pure approach for the time being to see if
it may have a favourable effect.


Thomas Dukleth
Agogme
109 E 9th Street, 3D
New York, NY  10003
USA
http://www.agogme.com
+1 212-674-3783


On Fri, October 9, 2009 02:04, Nicole Engard wrote:
> Thomas, you misunderstood me.  I wasn't saying not to remove the links
> to version of Koha that not everyone can have access to - I was saying
> - don't leave the demos section blank - make sure we find a genuine
> Koha demo to replace them with.  Vendors with their own versions of
> Koha can have those demos on their own sites, but they don't belong on
> koha.org.

[...]

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Re: Koha demo links on koha.org

Chris Cormack-7
* Thomas Dukleth ([hidden email]) wrote:

> I now have a corrected understanding of Nicole's position.  However much
> better it would be to have only community versions of Koha demonstrations
> linked from the community website, I would rather we not advocate purity
> in a manner that LibLime is liable to respond to in the most negative
> manner.
>
> At this time, I prefer that we ask LibLime to demote their non-community
> demonstrations as linked from the community website in favour of community
> demonstrations with no subtle advertising.  I prefer a gentler approach to
> LibLime than asking them to eliminate links to their demonstrations.  In
> suggesting this approach, I am hoping that we would be encouraging LibLime
> to act more favourably towards the community which I hope that they would
> reciprocate.
>
> I am advocating this less than pure approach for the time being to see if
> it may have a favourable effect.

I just would like the links to demos to be links to demos of Koha
whether they are hosted at Liblime or in Timbuktu I don't really care as
long as they are demonstrations of Koha.

Chris
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Re: Koha demo links on koha.org

Brendan Gallagher


On Oct 8, 2009, at 8:08 PM, Chris Cormack wrote:

> * Thomas Dukleth ([hidden email]) wrote:
>> I now have a corrected understanding of Nicole's position.  However  
>> much
>> better it would be to have only community versions of Koha  
>> demonstrations
>> linked from the community website, I would rather we not advocate  
>> purity
>> in a manner that LibLime is liable to respond to in the most negative
>> manner.
>> At this time, I prefer that we ask LibLime to demote their non-
>> community
>> demonstrations as linked from the community website in favour of  
>> community
>> demonstrations with no subtle advertising.

Thomas - I do question your use of the word non-community  
demonstrations here and community demonstrations (let's call them what  
they are).

There is a vast difference between LEK and Koha and that you should  
label them correctly.

The demos on the koha.org should be of Koha not something else.

-Brendan

>>  I prefer a gentler approach to
>> LibLime than asking them to eliminate links to their  
>> demonstrations.  In
>> suggesting this approach, I am hoping that we would be encouraging  
>> LibLime
>> to act more favourably towards the community which I hope that they  
>> would
>> reciprocate.
>>
>> I am advocating this less than pure approach for the time being to  
>> see if
>> it may have a favourable effect.
>
> I just would like the links to demos to be links to demos of Koha
> whether they are hosted at Liblime or in Timbuktu I don't really  
> care as
> long as they are demonstrations of Koha.
>
> Chris
> _______________________________________________
> Koha mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha

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Re: Koha demo links on koha.org

Thomas Dukleth-3
Maybe by using LibLime's own naming I have fallen into a marketing trap.
LEK is however Koha based even if referring to LEK as Koha may lead to
semantic confusion.  OPALS is Koha based at least from an earlier period
and LEK is more recently Koha based which should make integration of LEK
into Koha fairly easy at the present time.

All I am suggesting is not to push LibLime out of the Koha community any
faster than they are taking themselves out.  LibLime obviously wants the
association with the Koha name and that at least should be used as an
inducement for them to participate in the community.

I would like to see what might be done to encourage LEK to actually become
part of Koha by not insisting too strongly that it is entirely alien code.
 Gentle encouragement may not have been working well with LibLime
recently, however, there is some evidence that taking a stern attitude
about some things has only exacerbated problems with the company which
does effectively control the community website.

I have always thought that the English demonstration should have been
hosted on the community website without any subtle advertising.  Failing
to correct the issue in the past has become a small problem for the image
of Koha as free software which is not dependent upon any particular
company.  It would have been much easier to address that issue when Katipo
was controlling the community website but I never made comment.  Fixing
the issue had always meant maintaining a current demonstration system and
at least LibLime had been doing that work when no one else offered.

Yes I think that we should make the issue clear but I do not think we
should press the issue in a manner which is only likely to provoke a
negative reaction.  Until the community is less dependent upon what
LibLime controls, the community should keep better in mind the personal
attitude of those in control.  At the present time, I think that our
prospect of influence is greater by asking for cooperation where it is
more likely to be obtained.


Thomas Dukleth
Agogme
109 E 9th Street, 3D
New York, NY  10003
USA
http://www.agogme.com
+1 212-674-3783


On Fri, October 9, 2009 03:26, Brendan Gallagher wrote:

>
>
> On Oct 8, 2009, at 8:08 PM, Chris Cormack wrote:
>
>> * Thomas Dukleth ([hidden email]) wrote:
>>> I now have a corrected understanding of Nicole's position.  However
>>> much
>>> better it would be to have only community versions of Koha
>>> demonstrations
>>> linked from the community website, I would rather we not advocate
>>> purity
>>> in a manner that LibLime is liable to respond to in the most negative
>>> manner.
>>> At this time, I prefer that we ask LibLime to demote their non-
>>> community
>>> demonstrations as linked from the community website in favour of
>>> community
>>> demonstrations with no subtle advertising.
>
> Thomas - I do question your use of the word non-community
> demonstrations here and community demonstrations (let's call them what
> they are).
>
> There is a vast difference between LEK and Koha and that you should
> label them correctly.
>
> The demos on the koha.org should be of Koha not something else.
>
> -Brendan
>
>>>  I prefer a gentler approach to
>>> LibLime than asking them to eliminate links to their
>>> demonstrations.  In
>>> suggesting this approach, I am hoping that we would be encouraging
>>> LibLime
>>> to act more favourably towards the community which I hope that they
>>> would
>>> reciprocate.
>>>
>>> I am advocating this less than pure approach for the time being to
>>> see if
>>> it may have a favourable effect.
>>
>> I just would like the links to demos to be links to demos of Koha
>> whether they are hosted at Liblime or in Timbuktu I don't really
>> care as
>> long as they are demonstrations of Koha.
>>
>> Chris
>> _______________________________________________
>> Koha mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
>
>


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Re: Koha demo links on koha.org

Kyle Hall
> Maybe by using LibLime's own naming I have fallen into a marketing trap.
> LEK is however Koha based even if referring to LEK as Koha may lead to
> semantic confusion.  OPALS is Koha based at least from an earlier period
> and LEK is more recently Koha based which should make integration of LEK
> into Koha fairly easy at the present time.

Except that Liblime has indicated that they will only be releasing the
files in a standard tarball style, and will make no effort to help
integrate the work with standard Koha. At the very best, this makes
integration extremely hard.

> All I am suggesting is not to push LibLime out of the Koha community any
> faster than they are taking themselves out.  LibLime obviously wants the
> association with the Koha name and that at least should be used as an
> inducement for them to participate in the community.

I would agree. Liblime has been a great contributor in the past, and
perhaps they will come back in time. However, it's also possible that
Liblime needs only the name recognition that Koha brings.

> I would like to see what might be done to encourage LEK to actually become
> part of Koha by not insisting too strongly that it is entirely alien code.
>  Gentle encouragement may not have been working well with LibLime
> recently, however, there is some evidence that taking a stern attitude
> about some things has only exacerbated problems with the company which
> does effectively control the community website.

The problem is that it *is* alien code. And the longer the time
between releasing the code to LEK, the harder it becomes to integrate.
We are working on Koha, and they are working on LEK. So it's not the
situation where they release code that is just more features on top of
standard Koha. By the time they release it, Koha will have changed
quite a lot. Features are being added continuously to Koha. Once this
happens, integrating the two becomes extremely difficult. This problem
is exacerbated by Liblimes outright statement that they will not make
a Git repository for LEK available, which would have gone a long way
to helping this situation.

> I have always thought that the English demonstration should have been
> hosted on the community website without any subtle advertising.  Failing
> to correct the issue in the past has become a small problem for the image
> of Koha as free software which is not dependent upon any particular
> company.  It would have been much easier to address that issue when Katipo
> was controlling the community website but I never made comment.  Fixing
> the issue had always meant maintaining a current demonstration system and
> at least LibLime had been doing that work when no one else offered.

There was no reason they could not have left up their standard Koha
demos, and added their LEK demos in addition, but they chose not to.
No request was ever made. Liblime, at least in recent times, has
prefered to do everything internally, rather than get community help.
The way they went ahead with forming a Koha non-profit foundation is
another example. No intention of doing so was declared, we only found
out after the fact. I can't really judge them for these actions, but
it is what it is.

> Yes I think that we should make the issue clear but I do not think we
> should press the issue in a manner which is only likely to provoke a
> negative reaction.  Until the community is less dependent upon what
> LibLime controls, the community should keep better in mind the personal
> attitude of those in control.  At the present time, I think that our
> prospect of influence is greater by asking for cooperation where it is
> more likely to be obtained.

At this point, I get the feeling that the only way we the community
will ever have full control of Koha again is to 'fork' Koha by
renaming it, while registering all trademarks and domain names in
advance. What's Maori for 'Another Gift'?

I'm sure the collective resources of the Koha support companies could
easily handle this. If another Koha demo is needed, I will volunteer
to host it, along with anything else ( websites, git, etc. ).

Kyle
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Re: Koha demo links on koha.org

Owen Leonard-4
In reply to this post by Thomas Dukleth-3
> LEK is more recently Koha based which should make integration of LEK
> into Koha fairly easy at the present time.

...although that is purely speculation at this point. LibLime has not
responded to my questions about database changes in their version.

> LibLime obviously wants the
> association with the Koha name and that at least should be used as an
> inducement for them to participate in the community.

Unfortunately I think LibLime wants the association with the Koha name
because it lends them a credibility they are rapidly losing on other
fronts.

> I have always thought that the English demonstration should have been
> hosted on the community website without any subtle advertising.  Failing
> to correct the issue in the past has become a small problem for the image
> of Koha as free software which is not dependent upon any particular
> company.

This is easy enough to say, but as you can see from the difficulty in
setting up a Koha Foundation, harder to accomplish in reality. Who
would have hosted this community website? Who would have owned the
domain name? There wasn't, and still isn't, any entity which could
have accomplished this.

What I'm asking of LibLime is something that they would ask of any
other Koha support company: Don't advertise a proprietary version on
the community site. Does anyone believe LibLime would have allowed
other companies to even post *news* about their own proprietary
versions of Koha?

  -- Owen

--
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Athens County Public Libraries
http://www.myacpl.org
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Re: Koha demo links on koha.org

nengard
I'm with Owen on this - this isn't a political issue - it's a
practical one.  If someone visits the Koha demos and then downloads
Koha based on them, we're going to get a bunch of questions on list
and IRC about features we know nothing about.  Also, from a
documentation manager's point of view, I don't want people thinking I
didn't document something I was supposed to.  When you visit koha.org
you should see Koha demos, when you visit OPALS' site you should get
OPAL and when you visit LibLime you can see the LEK demos.  Makes
perfect sense to me.

Nicole

On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 5:18 AM, Owen Leonard <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> LEK is more recently Koha based which should make integration of LEK
>> into Koha fairly easy at the present time.
>
> ...although that is purely speculation at this point. LibLime has not
> responded to my questions about database changes in their version.
>
>> LibLime obviously wants the
>> association with the Koha name and that at least should be used as an
>> inducement for them to participate in the community.
>
> Unfortunately I think LibLime wants the association with the Koha name
> because it lends them a credibility they are rapidly losing on other
> fronts.
>
>> I have always thought that the English demonstration should have been
>> hosted on the community website without any subtle advertising.  Failing
>> to correct the issue in the past has become a small problem for the image
>> of Koha as free software which is not dependent upon any particular
>> company.
>
> This is easy enough to say, but as you can see from the difficulty in
> setting up a Koha Foundation, harder to accomplish in reality. Who
> would have hosted this community website? Who would have owned the
> domain name? There wasn't, and still isn't, any entity which could
> have accomplished this.
>
> What I'm asking of LibLime is something that they would ask of any
> other Koha support company: Don't advertise a proprietary version on
> the community site. Does anyone believe LibLime would have allowed
> other companies to even post *news* about their own proprietary
> versions of Koha?
>
>  -- Owen
>
> --
> Web Developer
> Athens County Public Libraries
> http://www.myacpl.org
> _______________________________________________
> Koha mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
>
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Re: Koha demo links on koha.org

paul POULAIN-3
In reply to this post by Thomas Dukleth-3
Thomas Dukleth a écrit :
> The French demonstrations at the French Koha
> website, http://www.koha-fr.org/ , are run by BibLibre but they do not
> contain anything which could be construed as an advertisement for
> BibLibre.
The exact link for french demo is http://demo.koha-fr.org, and, yes, we
(BibLibre) host this demo (as well as the mailing lists), as a
contribution (is it a "koha" in maori ;-) ?) to koha project.

We (community) lived with www.liblime.com/koha for years, but now, the
main problem is that it is not a demo of the Koha anyone can download.
And it is even not open source. So it has nothing to do on www.koha.org
There is another related problem: liblime host & own koha.org domain name.
So we can't do a lot of things about that, except crying & asking (which
we must do, for sure, thanks owen to have pointed this problem)

note: the (very small) positive point is that the community can see whas
LEK contains... for example
/cgi-bin/koha/admin/branch_transfer_limits.pl (many other available at :
/cgi-bin/koha/admin/admin-home.pl)

--
Paul POULAIN
http://www.biblibre.com
Expert en Logiciels Libres pour l'info-doc
Tel : (33) 4 91 81 35 08

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Re: Koha demo links on koha.org

Walls, Ian
If the community wishes to link to Koha derivatives IN ADDITION TO mainline Koha, then fine, but it should be clearly labeled as such.  I think we can all agree that when a link on koha.org says "Demo of Koha", it demonstrates what you get when you download and install Koha.

I think some of the root of this problem is that LibLime considers (or really wants to consider) itself to BE the Koha community.  I believe that LEK is not a fork to them; it's just the natural progression of the software, and Koha is the fork.  If Koha wasn't continuing to develop, or just developing slowly in a the middle of a long-term stable release, this attitude might better match reality, but since Koha is about to jump to 3.2, LEK is what's going off in its own direction. If/when a LEK tarball is released, perhaps the idea is that it will be so amazing, so perfect and so difficult to merge with Koha, that Koha will just replace itself with LEK, and we'll all move forward together again.

Again, just my opinions, but these thoughts have been brewing for some time, and it feels good to express them.



-Ian

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Paul Poulain
Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 9:35 AM
To: [hidden email]
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Koha] Koha demo links on koha.org

Thomas Dukleth a écrit :
> The French demonstrations at the French Koha
> website, http://www.koha-fr.org/ , are run by BibLibre but they do not
> contain anything which could be construed as an advertisement for
> BibLibre.
The exact link for french demo is http://demo.koha-fr.org, and, yes, we
(BibLibre) host this demo (as well as the mailing lists), as a
contribution (is it a "koha" in maori ;-) ?) to koha project.

We (community) lived with www.liblime.com/koha for years, but now, the
main problem is that it is not a demo of the Koha anyone can download.
And it is even not open source. So it has nothing to do on www.koha.org
There is another related problem: liblime host & own koha.org domain name.
So we can't do a lot of things about that, except crying & asking (which
we must do, for sure, thanks owen to have pointed this problem)

note: the (very small) positive point is that the community can see whas
LEK contains... for example
/cgi-bin/koha/admin/branch_transfer_limits.pl (many other available at :
/cgi-bin/koha/admin/admin-home.pl)

--
Paul POULAIN
http://www.biblibre.com
Expert en Logiciels Libres pour l'info-doc
Tel : (33) 4 91 81 35 08

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Re: Koha demo links on koha.org

nengard
In reply to this post by paul POULAIN-3
On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 6:34 AM, Paul Poulain <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Thomas Dukleth a écrit :
>> The French demonstrations at the French Koha
>> website, http://www.koha-fr.org/ , are run by BibLibre but they do not
>> contain anything which could be construed as an advertisement for
>> BibLibre.
> The exact link for french demo is http://demo.koha-fr.org, and, yes, we
> (BibLibre) host this demo (as well as the mailing lists), as a
> contribution (is it a "koha" in maori ;-) ?) to koha project.

Paul brings up another good point here - whether he knew it or not :)
- The demos page on Koha.org should have demos in languages other than
English if they exist and so it should link to an English demo and the
BibLibre French version - and any others.

>
> We (community) lived with www.liblime.com/koha for years, but now, the
> main problem is that it is not a demo of the Koha anyone can download.
> And it is even not open source. So it has nothing to do on www.koha.org
> There is another related problem: liblime host & own koha.org domain name.
> So we can't do a lot of things about that, except crying & asking (which
> we must do, for sure, thanks owen to have pointed this problem)
>
> note: the (very small) positive point is that the community can see whas
> LEK contains... for example
> /cgi-bin/koha/admin/branch_transfer_limits.pl (many other available at :
> /cgi-bin/koha/admin/admin-home.pl)
>
> --
> Paul POULAIN
> http://www.biblibre.com
> Expert en Logiciels Libres pour l'info-doc
> Tel : (33) 4 91 81 35 08
>
> _______________________________________________
> Koha mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
>
_______________________________________________
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Re: Koha demo links on koha.org

Kyle Hall
In reply to this post by paul POULAIN-3
I just wanted to note that the branch transfer limits is in Koha,
which I wrote for Geauga County. If fact the Koha version is better
than the LEK version, thanks to Owen's additional update to the
feature, which LEK does not seem to have.

Kyle

> note: the (very small) positive point is that the community can see whas
> LEK contains... for example
> /cgi-bin/koha/admin/branch_transfer_limits.pl (many other available at :
> /cgi-bin/koha/admin/admin-home.pl)



> Paul POULAIN
> http://www.biblibre.com
> Expert en Logiciels Libres pour l'info-doc
> Tel : (33) 4 91 81 35 08
>
> _______________________________________________
> Koha mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
>
_______________________________________________
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Re: Koha demo links on koha.org

Kyle Hall
In reply to this post by Walls, Ian
> I think some of the root of this problem is that LibLime considers (or really wants to consider) itself to BE the Koha community.  I
> believe that LEK is not a fork to them; it's just the natural progression of the software, and Koha is the fork.

Liblime has already stated that it is indeed a fork. From that
statement I would assume they are fully aware that they have forked
the code, and not visa versa. Besides, a community of one is no
community at all.

> If Koha wasn't
> continuing to develop, or just developing slowly in a the middle of a long-term stable release, this attitude might better match
> reality, but since Koha is about to jump to 3.2, LEK is what's going off in its own direction. If/when a LEK tarball is released,
> perhaps the idea is that it will be so amazing, so perfect and so difficult to merge with Koha, that Koha will just replace itself with
> LEK, and we'll all move forward together again.

Which would mean throwing out hundreds of man-hours of work on
features that other Koha customers wanted and needed, or spending many
more hours integrating them into LEK. We would also lose the entire
repository history, which let's us know who wrote what. I don't know
if that's extremely important, but if a feature is having a problem,
it can help locate the developer who would know that code best.

I think the more likely situation is some of the Koha devs see
particular features in LEK, and spend the time porting those features
to Koha. I doubt we could ever move every feature over, since without
Git we won't know what has changed without close inspection.

> Again, just my opinions, but these thoughts have been brewing for some time, and it feels good to express them.

I think in this community, everyone's opinion is valuable, that is one
of this community's strengths. I thank you for bringing these ideas
and views to the table, even if I don't agree with them fully.

Kyle

http://www.kylehall.info
Information Technology
Crawford County Federated Library System ( http://www.ccfls.org )

>
>
>
> -Ian
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Paul Poulain
> Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 9:35 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Koha] Koha demo links on koha.org
>
> Thomas Dukleth a écrit :
>> The French demonstrations at the French Koha
>> website, http://www.koha-fr.org/ , are run by BibLibre but they do not
>> contain anything which could be construed as an advertisement for
>> BibLibre.
> The exact link for french demo is http://demo.koha-fr.org, and, yes, we
> (BibLibre) host this demo (as well as the mailing lists), as a
> contribution (is it a "koha" in maori ;-) ?) to koha project.
>
> We (community) lived with www.liblime.com/koha for years, but now, the
> main problem is that it is not a demo of the Koha anyone can download.
> And it is even not open source. So it has nothing to do on www.koha.org
> There is another related problem: liblime host & own koha.org domain name.
> So we can't do a lot of things about that, except crying & asking (which
> we must do, for sure, thanks owen to have pointed this problem)
>
> note: the (very small) positive point is that the community can see whas
> LEK contains... for example
> /cgi-bin/koha/admin/branch_transfer_limits.pl (many other available at :
> /cgi-bin/koha/admin/admin-home.pl)
>
> --
> Paul POULAIN
> http://www.biblibre.com
> Expert en Logiciels Libres pour l'info-doc
> Tel : (33) 4 91 81 35 08
>
> _______________________________________________
> Koha mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> This email message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain information that is proprietary, confidential, and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure, or distribution is prohibited. If you have received this email in error please notify the sender by return email and delete the original message. Please note, the recipient should check this email and any attachments for the presence of viruses. The organization accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this email.
> =================================
> _______________________________________________
> Koha mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
>
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Re: Koha demo links on koha.org

Kyle Hall
In reply to this post by nengard
What we really need is fr.demo.koha.org, en.demo.koha.org, and so on.
This would require Liblimes assistance, and we can ask, but I don't
know how long it would take to set up.

Somewhat of an annoyance, the 'Demos' link on koha.org takes me to the
showcase, not to demos.

As an alternative, I just registered kohademos.org. I could make
en.kohademos.org point to http://demo.koha-fr.org/, and
fr.kohademos.org point to
http://demo.koha-fr.org/cgi-bin/koha/changelanguage.pl?language=fr-FR.
It seems like a reasonable way to handle it would be to have one
company host a demo in their native language, for each language. This
would spread out the amount of work and bandwidth required.

Kyle

http://www.kylehall.info
Information Technology
Crawford County Federated Library System ( http://www.ccfls.org )




On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 9:47 AM, Nicole Engard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 6:34 AM, Paul Poulain <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Thomas Dukleth a écrit :
>>> The French demonstrations at the French Koha
>>> website, http://www.koha-fr.org/ , are run by BibLibre but they do not
>>> contain anything which could be construed as an advertisement for
>>> BibLibre.
>> The exact link for french demo is http://demo.koha-fr.org, and, yes, we
>> (BibLibre) host this demo (as well as the mailing lists), as a
>> contribution (is it a "koha" in maori ;-) ?) to koha project.
>
> Paul brings up another good point here - whether he knew it or not :)
> - The demos page on Koha.org should have demos in languages other than
> English if they exist and so it should link to an English demo and the
> BibLibre French version - and any others.
>
>>
>> We (community) lived with www.liblime.com/koha for years, but now, the
>> main problem is that it is not a demo of the Koha anyone can download.
>> And it is even not open source. So it has nothing to do on www.koha.org
>> There is another related problem: liblime host & own koha.org domain name.
>> So we can't do a lot of things about that, except crying & asking (which
>> we must do, for sure, thanks owen to have pointed this problem)
>>
>> note: the (very small) positive point is that the community can see whas
>> LEK contains... for example
>> /cgi-bin/koha/admin/branch_transfer_limits.pl (many other available at :
>> /cgi-bin/koha/admin/admin-home.pl)
>>
>> --
>> Paul POULAIN
>> http://www.biblibre.com
>> Expert en Logiciels Libres pour l'info-doc
>> Tel : (33) 4 91 81 35 08
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Koha mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Koha mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
>
_______________________________________________
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Re: Koha demo links on koha.org

Walls, Ian
In reply to this post by Kyle Hall
I had missed the statement where LibLime admitted to forking; last news I caught they were still denying the fork.  That pretty much shoots my speculation in the foot.

To be clear, I was in no way advocating replacing Koha with LEK; that's a horrible, horrible idea of the reasons you stated, Kyle, and many more.  I'm just trying to find a logically-consistent mindset for LibLime that could explain their actions and justifications therefore.  It's not easy, and tends to lead to ridiculous conclusions.

Cheers,


-Ian

-----Original Message-----
From: Kyle Hall [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 10:01 AM
To: Walls, Ian
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Koha] Koha demo links on koha.org

> I think some of the root of this problem is that LibLime considers (or really wants to consider) itself to BE the Koha community.  I
> believe that LEK is not a fork to them; it's just the natural progression of the software, and Koha is the fork.

Liblime has already stated that it is indeed a fork. From that
statement I would assume they are fully aware that they have forked
the code, and not visa versa. Besides, a community of one is no
community at all.

> If Koha wasn't
> continuing to develop, or just developing slowly in a the middle of a long-term stable release, this attitude might better match
> reality, but since Koha is about to jump to 3.2, LEK is what's going off in its own direction. If/when a LEK tarball is released,
> perhaps the idea is that it will be so amazing, so perfect and so difficult to merge with Koha, that Koha will just replace itself with
> LEK, and we'll all move forward together again.

Which would mean throwing out hundreds of man-hours of work on
features that other Koha customers wanted and needed, or spending many
more hours integrating them into LEK. We would also lose the entire
repository history, which let's us know who wrote what. I don't know
if that's extremely important, but if a feature is having a problem,
it can help locate the developer who would know that code best.

I think the more likely situation is some of the Koha devs see
particular features in LEK, and spend the time porting those features
to Koha. I doubt we could ever move every feature over, since without
Git we won't know what has changed without close inspection.

> Again, just my opinions, but these thoughts have been brewing for some time, and it feels good to express them.

I think in this community, everyone's opinion is valuable, that is one
of this community's strengths. I thank you for bringing these ideas
and views to the table, even if I don't agree with them fully.

Kyle

http://www.kylehall.info
Information Technology
Crawford County Federated Library System ( http://www.ccfls.org )

>
>
>
> -Ian
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Paul Poulain
> Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 9:35 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Koha] Koha demo links on koha.org
>
> Thomas Dukleth a écrit :
>> The French demonstrations at the French Koha
>> website, http://www.koha-fr.org/ , are run by BibLibre but they do not
>> contain anything which could be construed as an advertisement for
>> BibLibre.
> The exact link for french demo is http://demo.koha-fr.org, and, yes, we
> (BibLibre) host this demo (as well as the mailing lists), as a
> contribution (is it a "koha" in maori ;-) ?) to koha project.
>
> We (community) lived with www.liblime.com/koha for years, but now, the
> main problem is that it is not a demo of the Koha anyone can download.
> And it is even not open source. So it has nothing to do on www.koha.org
> There is another related problem: liblime host & own koha.org domain name.
> So we can't do a lot of things about that, except crying & asking (which
> we must do, for sure, thanks owen to have pointed this problem)
>
> note: the (very small) positive point is that the community can see whas
> LEK contains... for example
> /cgi-bin/koha/admin/branch_transfer_limits.pl (many other available at :
> /cgi-bin/koha/admin/admin-home.pl)
>
> --
> Paul POULAIN
> http://www.biblibre.com
> Expert en Logiciels Libres pour l'info-doc
> Tel : (33) 4 91 81 35 08
>
> _______________________________________________
> Koha mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> This email message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain information that is proprietary, confidential, and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure, or distribution is prohibited. If you have received this email in error please notify the sender by return email and delete the original message. Please note, the recipient should check this email and any attachments for the presence of viruses. The organization accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this email.
> =================================
> _______________________________________________
> Koha mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
>

------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Koha demo links on koha.org

Owen Leonard-4
> I had missed the statement where LibLime admitted to forking; last news I caught they
> were still denying the fork.

LibLime's official statements deny that LEK is a fork. However, other
statements indicate that LibLime reserves the right to refuse to
integrate into LEK patches to the official version of Koha (patches
approved by a release manager) which LibLime doesn't want.

It is a fork as long there is no or incomplete integration between the
two versions. As long as LibLime's stated intentions continue to point
to LEK being a distinct version, a LEK demo should not be linked to
from koha.org.

  -- Owen

--
Web Developer
Athens County Public Libraries
http://www.myacpl.org
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Re: Koha demo links on koha.org

Ben Ide
In reply to this post by Walls, Ian
On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 9:45 AM, Walls, Ian <[hidden email]> wrote:
<snippage>
> I think some of the root of this problem is that LibLime considers (or really wants to consider) itself to BE the Koha community.  I believe that LEK is not a fork to them; it's just the natural progression of the software, and Koha is the fork.  If Koha wasn't continuing to develop, or just developing slowly in a the middle of a long-term stable release, this attitude might better match reality, but since Koha is about to jump to 3.2, LEK is what's going off in its own direction. If/when a LEK tarball is released, perhaps the idea is that it will be so amazing, so perfect and so difficult to merge with Koha, that Koha will just replace itself with LEK, and we'll all move forward together again.

I thought our installation was already running 3.2.  The manual had
already been written:
http://koha.org/documentation/manual/3.2

Shrug.
-- Ben
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Re: Koha demo links on koha.org

Ben Ide
In reply to this post by Owen Leonard-4
On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 10:00 AM, Owen Leonard <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I think it's inappropriate for Koha.org to link to LibLime demos,
> given the fact that LibLime's demo page explicitly showcases "LibLime
> Enterprise Koha," a closed version of Koha which has not been shared
> with the community. Demoing LEK is useless to those who wish to
> participate in the Open Source Koha. I call on LibLime to either
> provide direct links to genuine Open Source Koha installations or
> remove the demo links.

Or just label LibLime's version as "LibLime."  Or everything else as
"native."  You could even link the tags to Git.

This is probably better than demanding that the site own remove all
their demo links.  They might just remove all the *other* links,
instead, and rename the page.

Thanks,
-- Ben
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Re: Koha demo links on koha.org

nengard
In reply to this post by Ben Ide
The manual I wrote for 3.2 is 3.2 - not the LEK features - just those
being put into the public git repo for 3.2

Nicole

On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 8:36 AM, Ben Ide <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 9:45 AM, Walls, Ian <[hidden email]> wrote:
> <snippage>
>> I think some of the root of this problem is that LibLime considers (or really wants to consider) itself to BE the Koha community.  I believe that LEK is not a fork to them; it's just the natural progression of the software, and Koha is the fork.  If Koha wasn't continuing to develop, or just developing slowly in a the middle of a long-term stable release, this attitude might better match reality, but since Koha is about to jump to 3.2, LEK is what's going off in its own direction. If/when a LEK tarball is released, perhaps the idea is that it will be so amazing, so perfect and so difficult to merge with Koha, that Koha will just replace itself with LEK, and we'll all move forward together again.
>
> I thought our installation was already running 3.2.  The manual had
> already been written:
> http://koha.org/documentation/manual/3.2
>
> Shrug.
> -- Ben
> _______________________________________________
> Koha mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
>
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Re: Koha demo links on koha.org

Ben Ide
Thanks, Nicole.

I guess LibLime is just calling it 3.2.

-- Ben

On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 11:51 AM, Nicole Engard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The manual I wrote for 3.2 is 3.2 - not the LEK features - just those
> being put into the public git repo for 3.2
>
> Nicole
>
> On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 8:36 AM, Ben Ide <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 9:45 AM, Walls, Ian <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> <snippage>
>>> I think some of the root of this problem is that LibLime considers (or really wants to consider) itself to BE the Koha community.  I believe that LEK is not a fork to them; it's just the natural progression of the software, and Koha is the fork.  If Koha wasn't continuing to develop, or just developing slowly in a the middle of a long-term stable release, this attitude might better match reality, but since Koha is about to jump to 3.2, LEK is what's going off in its own direction. If/when a LEK tarball is released, perhaps the idea is that it will be so amazing, so perfect and so difficult to merge with Koha, that Koha will just replace itself with LEK, and we'll all move forward together again.
>>
>> I thought our installation was already running 3.2.  The manual had
>> already been written:
>> http://koha.org/documentation/manual/3.2
>>
>> Shrug.
>> -- Ben
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Re: Koha demo links on koha.org

Walls, Ian
> I guess LibLime is just calling it 3.2.

If that's the case, that may reinvigorate my theory that LibLime considers their work to be the 'authoritative' Koha.  Given that most LEK features were originally slated for Koha 3.2, there is a correlation, but LEK (from what I understand) is missing many of the features that other, non-LibLime developers have been working on.  Hence the fork.  Does LEK address the other RFCs for Koha 3.2 that WALDO did not originally sponsor?  Are they being integrated into LEK from Koha, recoded by LibLime, or just dropped?

I suppose I should poke at the LEK demo and learn more.


-Ian

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Re: Koha demo links on koha.org

Ben Ide
In reply to this post by Thomas Dukleth-3
I believe that The Community feels very strongly otherwise, since more
that 75% of the recent voting valued ownership issues, compared to
less than 20% who wanted to actually promote Koha to libraries.

That's kind of too bad, that 20% thing, because -- contrary to the
notion that any company can "cash in" on Koha's good name -- virtually
no one knows what the heck a Koha is.

http://www.librarytechnology.org/lwc-ils-marketshare.pl?SID=20091009648193359&Country=United+Kingdom&Type=Public
http://www.librarytechnology.org/lwc-ils-marketshare.pl?SID=20091009648193359&Country=Australia&Type=Public
http://www.librarytechnology.org/lwc-ils-marketshare.pl?SID=20091009648193359&Country=France&Type=Public
http://www.librarytechnology.org/lwc-ils-marketshare.pl?SID=20091009648193359&Country=United+States&Type=Public

Thanks,
-- Ben

On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 10:51 PM, Thomas Dukleth <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I now have a corrected understanding of Nicole's position.  However much
> better it would be to have only community versions of Koha demonstrations
> linked from the community website, I would rather we not advocate purity
> in a manner that LibLime is liable to respond to in the most negative
> manner.
>
> At this time, I prefer that we ask LibLime to demote their non-community
> demonstrations as linked from the community website in favour of community
> demonstrations with no subtle advertising.  I prefer a gentler approach to
> LibLime than asking them to eliminate links to their demonstrations.  In
> suggesting this approach, I am hoping that we would be encouraging LibLime
> to act more favourably towards the community which I hope that they would
> reciprocate.
>
> I am advocating this less than pure approach for the time being to see if
> it may have a favourable effect.
>
>
> Thomas Dukleth
> Agogme
> 109 E 9th Street, 3D
> New York, NY  10003
> USA
> http://www.agogme.com
> +1 212-674-3783
>
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Re: Koha demo links on koha.org

Kyle Hall
In reply to this post by Walls, Ian
To me, that theory just doesn't make sense. If it were true, why is it
LEK, and not just Koha. Why would they be offering 'Community Koha' if
LEK *is* 'Koha Community' ( assuming the theory were true ).

I was poking around the Liblime site and came across this page:
http://www.liblime.com/products/koha/koha-solution-comparison

I am a bit upset because they are listing "Off-line circulation" as a
LEK only feature. So not only is this false information, but they are
taking credit for my own personal work ( it's listed under "LibLime
Enhancements" ).

Kyle

http://www.kylehall.info
Information Technology
Crawford County Federated Library System ( http://www.ccfls.org )




On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 12:15 PM, Walls, Ian <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> I guess LibLime is just calling it 3.2.
>
> If that's the case, that may reinvigorate my theory that LibLime considers their work to be the 'authoritative' Koha.  Given that most LEK features were originally slated for Koha 3.2, there is a correlation, but LEK (from what I understand) is missing many of the features that other, non-LibLime developers have been working on.  Hence the fork.  Does LEK address the other RFCs for Koha 3.2 that WALDO did not originally sponsor?  Are they being integrated into LEK from Koha, recoded by LibLime, or just dropped?
>
> I suppose I should poke at the LEK demo and learn more.
>
>
> -Ian
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> This email message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain information that is proprietary, confidential, and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure, or distribution is prohibited. If you have received this email in error please notify the sender by return email and delete the original message. Please note, the recipient should check this email and any attachments for the presence of viruses. The organization accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this email.
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Re: First things first for a Koha foundation

Thomas Dukleth-3
In reply to this post by Kyle Hall
Reply inline:

1.  MINUTES TO RESOLVE BUT FIRST THINGS FIRST.

Original Subject: Re: [Koha] Koha demo links on koha.org

On Fri, October 9, 2009 14:12, Kyle Hall wrote:
> What we really need is fr.demo.koha.org, en.demo.koha.org, and so on.
> This would require Liblimes assistance, and we can ask, but I don't
> know how long it would take to set up.

It would take only a few minutes to direct domains or subdomains to
something under community control.  We should move on with the business of
setting up a legal entity for the Koha project which can manage that and
receive funding.


2.  FASTEST WAY TO ORGANISE OURSELVES.

The fastest way to set up such an entity which can receive donations to
support what may be needed at least for an interim period is through
having a foundation held by HLT or SPI for a temporary period.  Setting up
an independent Koha project entity should also be done but would take
perhaps some months of discussions about bylaws which we could be
discussing while already having legal status via another organisation such
as HLT or SPI.

An independent foundation now choice for which the majority voted in the
first poll perhaps without understanding the question or implication well
would delay matters because of all the discussion about bylaws and other
matters needed and which ought to occur before registering.  [There were
some problems with the design of the first poll which we should fix in
future by having wide community discussion of the drafting of any poll.]
Registering an independent entity with the government is easy and may take
little more than a couple of weeks.  More weeks may be required to obtain
certification of non-profit status.  Yet before all that one has to know
all the particulars of the registration and decide in what jurisdiction it
should be registered primarily which may take months to agree.

I believe that I understand correctly that both HLT and SPI either already
have in SPI's case or within a few days can have in HLT's case a bank
account in the US and in Europe to receive monetary donations in the local
currency.  Receiving donations in the local currency would allow the
project to direct their use in that currency without any loss of value in
currency conversion.  HLT certainly already has a bank account to receive
donations in another local currency where there is significant interest in
the project.  HLT is certainly the most flexible.

I favour HLT because of their greater flexibility and commitment to the
Koha project from its very inception.  SPI has much better governance
rules which we could discuss adopting or adapting for ourselves as an
organisation held by another organisation and later as an independent
organisation.  HLT's charter grants them perhaps a little too much
flexibility and the Koha community should expect a legal guarantee from
them to take on the full trust of the community.  They have demonstrated
over the years their complete willingness to not try to exert any undue
influence on the project for any private interests of their library.
Combining that implicit trust with a guarantee for the Koha community
gives me great confidence.

I might be persuaded that SPI is a better choice but I merely guess that
the very size of SPI would make it more difficult to obtain rapid
attention when it may be needed.  Perhaps some reports from other projects
they host would persuade me otherwise.

The Software Freedom Conservancy could also be a good choice but their
worst problem is that they have become so popular that to preserve the
degree and quality of attention given to each accepted project there is
now a three to six month waiting list for application consideration.  I
think that the application waiting period is now too much time for the
level of impatience I perceive from those most active in the Koha
community.

In the final ballot, please vote for a project organisation which we can
actually implement now.  Of the possibilities currently nominated that is
only a foundation held by HLT and SPI for an interim period.  The project
can have all assets held on its behalf transferred to own independent
foundation soon afterwords but everything needs to be agreed and in place
first.


2.  MANY PROBLEMS WITH THE COMMUNITY WEBSITE.

>
> Somewhat of an annoyance, the 'Demos' link on koha.org takes me to the
> showcase, not to demos.

I had identified a large number of such problems including that one
specifically when the new website went up.  I reported them to the mailing
list but I have not yet taken the time to report them formally as bugs.

The worst problem is that the navigation links are not displayed in a
visible manner on the world's most commonly used web browser, Internet
Explorer with the default IE configuration.  I have had to fix CSS
problems with Internet Explorer and it can be tricky because some things
are interpreted backwards to the standard.  The default Plone stylesheets
would have worked but they were not modified or replaced for the Koha
website with cross-browser compatibility in mind.


3.  NEW WEBSITES.

> As an alternative, I just registered kohademos.org. I could make
> en.kohademos.org point to http://demo.koha-fr.org/, and
> fr.kohademos.org point to
> http://demo.koha-fr.org/cgi-bin/koha/changelanguage.pl?language=fr-FR.
> It seems like a reasonable way to handle it would be to have one
> company host a demo in their native language, for each language. This
> would spread out the amount of work and bandwidth required.

We should coordinate such efforts through an entity in which we can place
our collective trust for holding the domains and other key aspects of the
project.

When we have ourselves properly organised, then we can make requests of
LibLime from a position of strength as a community prepared to offer an
alternative if LibLime is disinclined to cooperate.  Presently, with
LibLime in control of the community domain and no official community
alternative to offer any request is made from a position of weakness.

[...]


Thomas Dukleth
Agogme
109 E 9th Street, 3D
New York, NY  10003
USA
http://www.agogme.com
+1 212-674-3783

[...]

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Re: Koha demo links on koha.org

Breeding, Marshall
In reply to this post by Ben Ide
Not quite sure what the links were illustrating, but here are the persistent versions:
(including the SID for an expired session will redirect to the main LTG page).

http://www.librarytechnology.org/lwc-ils-marketshare.pl?Country=United+Kingdom&Type=Public
http://www.librarytechnology.org/lwc-ils-marketshare.pl?Country=Australia&Type=Public
http://www.librarytechnology.org/lwc-ils-marketshare.pl?Country=France&Type=Public
http://www.librarytechnology.org/lwc-ils-marketshare.pl?Country=United+States&Type=Public

-marshall

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Ben Ide
Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 11:31 AM
To: [hidden email]
Cc: Koha List
Subject: Re: [Koha] Koha demo links on koha.org

I believe that The Community feels very strongly otherwise, since more
that 75% of the recent voting valued ownership issues, compared to
less than 20% who wanted to actually promote Koha to libraries.

That's kind of too bad, that 20% thing, because -- contrary to the
notion that any company can "cash in" on Koha's good name -- virtually
no one knows what the heck a Koha is.

http://www.librarytechnology.org/lwc-ils-marketshare.pl?Country=United+Kingdom&Type=Public
http://www.librarytechnology.org/lwc-ils-marketshare.pl?Country=Australia&Type=Public
http://www.librarytechnology.org/lwc-ils-marketshare.pl?Country=France&Type=Public
http://www.librarytechnology.org/lwc-ils-marketshare.pl?Country=United+States&Type=Public

Thanks,
-- Ben

On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 10:51 PM, Thomas Dukleth <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I now have a corrected understanding of Nicole's position.  However much
> better it would be to have only community versions of Koha demonstrations
> linked from the community website, I would rather we not advocate purity
> in a manner that LibLime is liable to respond to in the most negative
> manner.
>
> At this time, I prefer that we ask LibLime to demote their non-community
> demonstrations as linked from the community website in favour of community
> demonstrations with no subtle advertising.  I prefer a gentler approach to
> LibLime than asking them to eliminate links to their demonstrations.  In
> suggesting this approach, I am hoping that we would be encouraging LibLime
> to act more favourably towards the community which I hope that they would
> reciprocate.
>
> I am advocating this less than pure approach for the time being to see if
> it may have a favourable effect.
>
>
> Thomas Dukleth
> Agogme
> 109 E 9th Street, 3D
> New York, NY  10003
> USA
> http://www.agogme.com
> +1 212-674-3783
>
_______________________________________________
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1234